The Breen Report: Stomping on Dissent at Yale (June 22, 2011)

Stomping on Dissent at Yale

123 posts by 11 authors

Page 1

6/22/11

Stomping on Dissent at Yale
If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
democracy and free speech, you should click on the following links, in
series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the most
compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is constantly
hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.

While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young student
politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a brutal
propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) it’s also profoundly disturbing, when
you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly liberal
institution like Yale.

NOW READ ON…

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/yale/THE_MARKETPLACE_OF_IDEAS_AT_YALE.pdf

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update/

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update-2/

Zev

6/22/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-
dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

Mo, your conscience is selective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdtafcbqrE

Tilly

6/22/11

"Zulu Kilo" <nzge...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...

- show quoted text -

I guarantee if you were to say those things in the West Bank or Gaza you
would be lynched,
Last year that happened to a young man in Gaza.who made remarks about Islam.
His entire family
have suffered even though his father rejected his son and what he said.

Tilly

6/22/11

"Zulu Kilo" <nzge...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...
>

- show quoted text -

Here's an example:

In the West Bank town of Qalqiliya, 26 year-old Walid Husayin was arrested
for not believing in God. While the West Bank is predominantly Muslim, the
Palestinian Authority which governs the region is known as being one of the
most liberal in the Arab world and supports a more secular government and
yet now Husayin faces life in prison and possibly the death penalty for
being an atheist.

Walid Husayin is a blogger and has created a facebook account under a false
name in which he wrote some critical things about Islam and Allah. He even
created several facebook groups mocking the dominant religion in his town.
In one group, he jokingly claimed to be God and instructed followers to
smoke marijuana.

Husayin has been charged with, "insulting the divine essence" and many
people in the region actually want him to be put to death in some rather
graphic ways. Some have called for him to be burnt to death while others
want his execution to be public as an example to others. The surprising
thing is that this isn't coming from Islamic extremists nor is it happening
in a fundamentalist Islamic nation like Iran. These are Islamic moderates
calling for his public execution and a more secular Palestinian Authority
which has arrested him.

Tilly

6/22/11

"Tilly" <femai...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:itscak$ohf$1@dont-email.me...

- show quoted text -

Here's a link:

http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/atheist-walid-husayin-didnt-watch-what-he-was-sayin-on-facebook-and-has-been-arrested-by-the-palestinian-authority/

Oh and BTW if Walid w as an Arab Israeli he would be free to say what he
likes.

2 messages have been deleted.

Tilly

6/22/11

"Msgr Scooter" <mfr.sitbwolgu@fathoming.you.123> wrote in message
news:mif307pi8mkghd67b4adpk4vo7sjcbidv3@4ax.com...
> On , , Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:23:30 +1200, Re: Stomping on Dissent at Yale,
> "Tilly"

- show quoted text -

> The Jews used to stone people to death, what is your point?
>

Christians burnt people at the stake and conducted pogroms in the name of
religion
long after Jews outlawed stoning 2000 years ago.
What's your point?

6/23/11

On Jun 22, 5:19 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-
> dabfb5703...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

>
>
>
>
>
> > Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> > If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> > democracy and free speech, you should click on the following links, in
> > series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the most
> > compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is constantly
> > hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>
> > While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young student
> > politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a brutal
> > propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) it’s also profoundly disturbing, when
> > you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly liberal
> > institution like Yale.
>
> > NOW READ ON…
>

> >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/yale/THE_MARKETPLACE_OF_IDEAS_AT...

>
> >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update/
>
> >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update-2/
>
> Mo, your conscience is selective.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdtafcbqrE

No, I am not selective, Zev. You are being dishonest. Just like you, I
don't agree with those students shouting during Oren's speech. Just as
a matter of interest, do you agree with the secretive, underhand
campaigns to prevent a scholar like Norman Finkelstein speaking at a
university?

6/23/11

On Jun 22, 1:14 pm, "Zulu Kilo" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> is confused:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

- show quoted text -

The person that Yishai Schwarz is trying to silence is a Jew whose
parents survived the Nazi death camps. He didn't want to say any of
the things you are fantasizing about; he wanted to talk about
international law and human rights.

I have told you before that you need to do some reading on this
subject, Weihana, but you have clearly ignored that advice. This makes
you look very foolish, I'm afraid.

6/23/11

On Jun 22, 9:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Zulu Kilo" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> >> Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> >> If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> >> democracy and free speech,
> > snip
>
> > What would the Palestinians know about democracy or freedom of speech? Do
> > you suppose that a majority of Palestinians would tolerate my speech if I
> > was to say that their prophet was a misogynist paedophile? What if a
> > created insulting cartoons of their prophet? What if I said that all
> > religion was stupid and that Muslims were the stupidest of the lot? What
> > if I tried to convert Muslims to atheism?
>
> > Weihana.
>
> I guarantee if you were to say those things in the West Bank or Gaza you
> would be lynched,
> Last year that happened to a young man in Gaza.who made remarks about Islam.
> His entire family
> have suffered even though his father rejected his son and what he said.

Finkelstein did not want to say any of those things, Tilly. He is an
atheist. He is not interested in religious ideology, but in human
rights and international law. He speaks regularly in the occupied West
Bank and in Gaza.

I guess you know all this, however. Are you just being mischievous in
encouraging poor, bewildered Weihana?

Tilly

6/23/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:609fd002-6d1d-4b7c-af2e-c6e06561d00c@o10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

_______________________________________________________________________________________
Read my lips, there is no such thing as free speech in Gaza and the W Bank.
If you criticise the authorities
you are in trouble.The jails are full of people who have done it.

6/23/11

On Jun 23, 12:12 am, PaxPerPoten <P...@USA.org> wrote:

...<SNIP>...

Go away, you anti-Semitic moron.

Page 1

6/23/11

- show quoted text -

Actually, there is as much free speech as there is in Israel. You are
either trying to mislead people here, or you are wholly ignorant. And
you know I know you aren't ignorant.

>
> If you criticise the authorities you are in trouble.

Nonsense. Foreign visitors like Chomsky and Finkelstein have both
trenchantly criticized the Hamas government, and so have ordinary
Palestinian citizens (or non-persons, if you're of the mindset of
Yishai Schwartz or Alan Dershowitz). When the United Nations
investigation team interviewed thousands of people in Gaza following
the Israeli blitz of 2008-9, people spoke out freely and vehemently
against the various failings and general mal-administration of the
Hamas government.

You surely know this, Tilly, but you reflexively repeat the black
propaganda of the Israeli government. That's troubling to me; I would
expect you had more integrity.

>
> The jails are full of people who have done it.

Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
prisoners.

6/23/11

- show quoted text -

Did you... did you...DID YOU JUST CALL THIS WRITER (i.e., MOI) A
"PATRONIZING TWAT"?!!?!?!?!? Bas-tard.

>
> I did not say that anyone said, or was trying to say, the things I mentioned. I
> asked what would happen if *I* said those things, and as Tilly has quite
> correctly pointed out, I would be on the receiving end of serious violence
> on the part of these superstitious neanderthals.

Tilly did not "quite correctly" point anything out to you. Because you
lack the depth of knowledge required to engage in this discussion, she
took advantage of you.

>
> Point being that I
> couldn't give a shit about their so-called desire for "democracy" and
> "freedom" because in reality they do not desire such things.

You should be careful about what you say here. You often come across
as a thoughtful and concerned person, but on this issue you are
expressing contempt for not only democracy, but for a whole ethnic
group, the indigenous people of Palestine. One of these days
(hopefully sooner rather than later) you'll re-assess what you've just
written.

>
> Whatever the
> legitimacy of criticism towards Israel, they are no better and in fact much
> worse because what they desire is an oppressive theocratic government which
> kills people for being gay or denouncing their religion.

You don't even know what you're talking about, Weihana. You're better
than this; you need to do something about repairing your glaring
knowledge gap on this issue.

6/23/11

On Jun 23, 1:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>
> news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> democracy and free speech, you should click on the following links, in
> series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the most
> compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is constantly
> hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>
> While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young student
> politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a brutal

> propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) it s also profoundly disturbing, when

> you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly liberal
> institution like Yale.
>
> NOW READ ON
>

> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/yale/THE_MARKETPLACE_OF_IDEAS_AT...
> knowledgehttp://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update/

>
> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update-2/
>
> You expect readers to accept Finkelstein as the font of knowledge on
> Israel, international law and free speech.

He is all of those things. He is internationally acclaimed as exactly
that.

>
> His book the The Holocaust Industry is full of errors and that's just for starters.

Really? Could you outline just ONE of those errors, Tilly? And, just
as a matter of interest, have you actually READ it?

>
> But I acknowledge he appeals to far leftists who are two lazy to do real
> research or who are simply uninterested
> in the truth, as long as what he says supports their agenda.

"Far left" in this case is a technical term, meaning "democratic" and
"liberal". I don't believe you have read Finkelstein's books or his
articles, or listened to him speak. You would not have written such
nonsense if you had.

>
> Oh and BTW he isn't regarded as an exceptional scholar (unlike Chomsky)
> except by those who utilise his utterings to support their propaganda or
> agenda.

Well, yes he is.

>
> Most scholars regard him as sloppy and a loon.

Au contraire, Tilly: most scholars recognize and respect Finkelstein's
scholarship as equal to his great courage and his eloquence. Or have
you not heard of Noam Chomsky, Raul Hilberg, and Avi Shlaim?

By the way, Tilly, Alan Dershowitz is not a reliable guide. Did you
realize that Finkelstein demolished him many years ago, exposing him
as a fraud and a plagiarist? It makes you look rather foolish when you
repeat his empty, vicious blather.

>
> People worthy of
> respect (not Jews) have variously described him as "juvenile," "arrogant,"
> and "stupid" .

Who said that about him, Tilly? And what does it matter whether
someone flinging such wretchedly lame insults as those is a Jew or
not?

Odd to see you exempting Chomsky from your torrent of abuse. Why don't
you lump him in with his friend and colleague Finkelstein?

Still, it shows you're not a complete automaton. There's reason for
optimism here.

Think I'll pour myself a celebratory glass of Pimms...

Zev

6/23/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1e0ea5da-bba0-4375-8124-
d020f84915d8@l9g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 23, 11:35 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:609fd002-6d1d-4b7c-af2e-c6e06561d00c@o10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 22, 9:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Zulu Kilo" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...
>> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

> Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
> prisoners.

Remember Nelson Mandela?
Why doesn't the PA launch a similar campaign,
for the worst cases at least?
I have a simple answer, you probably don't.

Zev

6/23/11

On Jun 23, 1:57 am, Mo <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jun 22, 5:19 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>

> > news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-
> > dabfb5703...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> > > If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> > > democracy and free speech, you should click on the following links, in
> > > series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the most
> > > compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is constantly
> > > hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>
> > > While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young student
> > > politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a brutal
> > > propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) it’s also profoundly disturbing, when
> > > you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly liberal
> > > institution like Yale.
>
> > > NOW READ ON…
>
> > >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/yale/THE_MARKETPLACE_OF_IDEAS_AT...
>

> > >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update/
>
> > >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update-2/
>
> > Mo, your conscience is selective.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdtafcbqrE
>
> No, I am not selective, Zev.

Why didn't you bring it up when it happened?

> You are being dishonest. Just like you, I
> don't agree with those students shouting during Oren's speech. Just as
> a matter of interest, do you agree with the secretive, underhand
> campaigns to prevent a scholar like Norman Finkelstein speaking at a
> university?

I don't know anything about it but there is a difference.
Oren presents himself as exactly what he is.
Finkelstein doesn't.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e0ea5da-bba0-4375-8124-d020f84915d8@l9g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

That is totally untrue, free speech is permitted if it's in the line with
that of the powers that be and especially if it's negative towards Israel.
Say anything positive publically about Israel in Gaza and you will get a
visit from Hamas's goons.You will accused of being a collaborator or spy
and dragged out of your house.
I can absolutely guarantee you that citizens can't publically disagree with
or demonstrate against their policies
and they don't because people are too afraid to. That is definitely not
what happens in Israel, you can say what you like unless it is anti-semitic
or racist, demonstrate against the government wiithout fear, speak in favour
of equal rights for anyone and everyone without fear and be who you want to
be . You can speak openly in favour of the Palestinians.

Try being a gay person or an an atheist or even a feminist in the
Palestinian territories .

> If you criticise the authorities you are in trouble.

>Nonsense. Foreign visitors like Chomsky and Finkelstein have both
>trenchantly criticized the Hamas government, and so have ordinary
>Palestinian citizens (or non-persons, if you're of the mindset of
>Yishai Schwartz or Alan Dershowitz).

They don't live there you nitwit.No one who lives in Gaza publically
criticises Hamas because they know
the will pay a high price if they do. The West Bank is much more liberal
but there are still limits, the police arrest people if they cross a line.

> When the United Nations
>investigation team interviewed thousands of people in Gaza following
>the Israeli blitz of 2008-9, people spoke out freely and vehemently
>against the various failings and general mal-administration of the
>Hamas government.

lol.
Some of them ended up dead.

>You surely know this, Tilly, but you reflexively repeat the black
>propaganda of the Israeli government.

What a load of crap, unlike you I have lived there and visit there, I also
am in contact with people there including Palestinian friends.
If you think Finkelstein is a reliable source of information you are
deluded.
Oh and BTW why do you think by far the majority of Palestinians want to
remain in Israel as Israelis and and not live in a Palestinian State?
They're not stupid.

>That's troubling to me; I would
>expect you had more integrity.

That's your usual reflex response.If someone doesn't agree with you on every
subject you pontificate upon then they lack integrity.
It's pathetic and childish.

>
> The jails are full of people who have done it.

>Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
>prisoners.

They aren't there because of what they said, unless what they said was gross
incitement to violence against Israel or Israelis or they actually planned
to commit violent acts or committed violent acts.
That being said some people are there who I don't think should be,
especially children.

6/24/11

On Jun 23, 11:47 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>

> news:1e0ea5da-bba0-4375-8124-
> d020f8491...@l9g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

>
> > On Jun 23, 11:35 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:609fd002-6d1d-4b7c-af2e-c6e06561d00c@o10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Jun 22, 9:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > "Zulu Kilo" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...
> >> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > >news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
> > prisoners.
>
> Remember Nelson Mandela?
> Why doesn't the PA launch a similar campaign,
> for the worst cases at least?

They do, Zev, which you would know if you were even slightly
interested. It seems you just ignore the vast bulk of Palestinian
protest, which is non-violent and even on occasion very clever, like
this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_VOm7i_pA

>
> I have a simple answer, you probably don't.

I'm sure you have a simple answer, Zev, and I'm also sure you know
it's not a truthful one.

6/24/11

On Jun 23, 11:52 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 1:57 am, Mo <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 22, 5:19 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > > news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-
> > > dabfb5703...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> > > > If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> > > > democracy and free speech, you should click on the following links, in
> > > > series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the most
> > > > compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is constantly
> > > > hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>
> > > > While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young student
> > > > politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a brutal
> > > > propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) it’s also profoundly disturbing, when
> > > > you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly liberal
> > > > institution like Yale.
>
> > > > NOW READ ON…
>
> > > >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/yale/THE_MARKETPLACE_OF_IDEAS_AT...
>
> > > >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update/
>
> > > >http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update-2/
>
> > > Mo, your conscience is selective.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdtafcbqrE
>
> > No, I am not selective, Zev.
>
> Why didn't you bring it up when it happened?

What? Suddenly I'm the world's policeman, now?

>
> > You are being dishonest. Just like you, I
> > don't agree with those students shouting during Oren's speech. Just as
> > a matter of interest, do you agree with the secretive, underhand
> > campaigns to prevent a scholar like Norman Finkelstein speaking at a
> > university?
>
> I don't know anything about it but there is a difference.
> Oren presents himself as exactly what he is.
> Finkelstein doesn't.

You're speaking in riddles, Zev. What do you mean?

Tilly

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8fbc1142-1ee4-4077-8d29-390315383b96@n5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

Why don't you take a look at what you write. Almost without exception when
people disagree
with you then you say they lack intelligence or integrity or they're
arrogant . Not once have I ever seen
you concede you were wrong about something. Personally I think anyone who
regards Finkelstein
as a reliable source needs their head read. Many things in his books are
just plain wrong , proveably so
,sometimes he lies and often he plagiarises completely out of context. He
plays on the fact his parents were holocaust survivors ,because he believes
then people will think what he says is authorative about Israel ,Jews,the
holocaust,
etc......
.
Perhaps you should read what Benny Morris thinks of him.

> I did not say that anyone said, or was trying to say, the things I
> mentioned. I
> asked what would happen if *I* said those things, and as Tilly has quite
> correctly pointed out, I would be on the receiving end of serious violence
> on the part of these superstitious neanderthals.

>Tilly did not "quite correctly" point anything out to you. Because you
>lack the depth of knowledge required to engage in this discussion, she
>took advantage of you.

And you do?
Pull the other one Mo.

>
> Point being that I
> couldn't give a shit about their so-called desire for "democracy" and
> "freedom" because in reality they do not desire such things.

>You should be careful about what you say here. You often come across
>as a thoughtful and concerned person, but on this issue you are
>expressing contempt for not only democracy, but for a whole ethnic
>group, the indigenous people of Palestine. One of these days
>(hopefully sooner rather than later) you'll re-assess what you've just
>written.

When might that be?

>
> Whatever the
> legitimacy of criticism towards Israel, they are no better and in fact
> much
> worse because what they desire is an oppressive theocratic government
> which
> kills people for being gay or denouncing their religion.

>You don't even know what you're talking about, Weihana.

It's certainly true in Gaza and it's also true to an extent in the West
Bank.Try being gay, atheist, feminist
or overly critical and life is hellish.

>You're better
>than this; you need to do something about repairing your glaring
>knowledge gap on this issue.

Stop lecturing ,as if you know, you've never actually been there.

6/24/11

- show quoted text -

Perhaps you are confusing those lawless, arrogant "settlers" with
Hamas. People like this woman...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJxPgQ9Qx8Y&feature=related

>
> That is definitely not
> what happens in Israel, you can say what you like unless it is anti-semitic
> or racist, demonstrate against the government wiithout fear, speak in favour
> of equal rights for anyone and everyone without fear and be who you want to
> be . You can speak openly in favour of the Palestinians.
>
> Try being a gay person or an an atheist or even a feminist in the
> Palestinian territories .

Try being any of those in parts of America or Israel. And how do gay
people, atheists and feminists in the West Bank benefit in any way
from having their homes demolished, their crops burned, their olive
trees uprooted and their towns regularly locked down?

>
> > If you criticise the authorities you are in trouble.
> >Nonsense. Foreign visitors like Chomsky and Finkelstein have both
> >trenchantly criticized the Hamas government, and so have ordinary
> >Palestinian citizens (or non-persons, if you're of the mindset of
> >Yishai Schwartz or Alan Dershowitz).
>
> They don't live there you nitwit.No one who lives in Gaza publically
> criticises Hamas because they know
> the will pay a high price if they do.

Hundreds, maybe thousands, of people did exactly that during the U.N.
fact-finding mission.

>
> The West Bank is much more liberal

The West Bank suffers under the daily depredations of an
internationally condemned military occupation. Whether the puppet
administration there is "liberal" or not is beside the point.

>
> but there are still limits, the police arrest people if they cross a line.
>
> > When the United Nations
> >investigation team interviewed thousands of people in Gaza following
> >the Israeli blitz of 2008-9, people spoke out freely and vehemently
> >against the various failings and general mal-administration of the
> >Hamas government.
>
> lol.
> Some of them ended up dead.

Oh really? Could you cite some evidence to back up that statement,
please?

>
> >You surely know this, Tilly, but you reflexively repeat the black
> >propaganda of the Israeli government.
>
> What a load of crap, unlike you I have lived there and visit there, I also
> am in contact with people there including Palestinian friends.
> If you think Finkelstein is a reliable source of information you are
> deluded.

You know very well that Finkelstein is as authoritative about Israel,
Zionism and Palestine as any one man could ever be. Your coarse abuse
of him says nothing about him, but unfortunately says a great deal
about yourself.

>
> Oh and BTW why do you think by far the majority of Palestinians want to
> remain in Israel as Israelis and and not live in a Palestinian State?
> They're not stupid.

Most Palestinians---probably EVERY Palestinian, including the ones in
Israel, want Israel to observe international law and end its illegal,
brutal occupation of the West Bank, and its constant terrorization of
the population of Gaza.

>
> >That's troubling to me; I would
> >expect you had more integrity.
>
> That's your usual reflex response.If someone doesn't agree with you on every
> subject you pontificate upon then they lack integrity.
> It's pathetic and childish.

I commented on the fact that you are knowingly telling untruths. That
does distress me, deeply. You shouldn't throw your principles out the
window just to score minor points---because those points are then
inadmissible, and it casts doubt on other things you say.

>
>
>
> > The jails are full of people who have done it.
> >Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
> >prisoners.
>
> They aren't there because of what they said,

Yes they are, in almost every case. Or are you saying that human
rights groups, including B'Tselem are lying?

>
> unless what they said was gross
> incitement to violence against Israel or Israelis or they actually planned
> to commit violent acts or committed violent acts.
> That being said some people are there who I don't think should be,
> especially children.

You've contradicted yourself in just two sentences. Not that it will
worry you, judging by the aggressive and irrational tone of the rest
of your post.

6/24/11

- show quoted text -

No I don't. You're misrepresenting me. If someone disagrees with me
civilly and rationally, I'm happy to be contradicted. Unfortunately,
Weihana's comments on this issue are far below the standard at which
he usually operates.

>
> Not once have I ever seen
> you concede you were wrong about something.

You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.

>
> Personally I think anyone who
> regards Finkelstein
> as a reliable source needs their head read.

>
> Many things in his books are
> just plain wrong , proveably so

No they are not. Who has demonstrated anything he has written to be
wrong? Certainly, the father of Holocaust studies, Raul Hilberg, has
nothing but the highest praise for Finkelstein's scholarship.

>
> ,sometimes he lies

No he does not.

>
> and often he plagiarises completely out of context.

No he does not. Are you mixing him up with Alan Dershowitz, perhaps?

>
> He plays on the fact his parents were holocaust survivors ,

Gosh, Tilly, it's obvious where you get your arguments from. The
people who "play on the fact his parents were holocaust survivors" are
Finkelstein's enemies. But let Finkelstein explain...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fC53_XvYXQ

>
> because he believes
> then people will think what he says is authorative about Israel ,Jews,the holocaust,

Nonsense. You're wallowing in some despicable, low, and, above all,
desperate tactics here, Tilly.

>
> etc......
> .
> Perhaps you should read what Benny Morris thinks of him.
>
> > I did not say that anyone said, or was trying to say, the things I
> > mentioned. I
> > asked what would happen if *I* said those things, and as Tilly has quite
> > correctly pointed out, I would be on the receiving end of serious violence
> > on the part of these superstitious neanderthals.
> >Tilly did not "quite correctly" point anything out to you. Because you
> >lack the depth of knowledge required to engage in this discussion, she
> >took advantage of you.
>
> And you do?
> Pull the other one Mo.

Yes, I do. Unlike Weihana, I'm serious about this issue.

>
>
>
> > Point being that I
> > couldn't give a shit about their so-called desire for "democracy" and
> > "freedom" because in reality they do not desire such things.
> >You should be careful about what you say here. You often come across
> >as a thoughtful and concerned person, but on this issue you are
> >expressing contempt for not only democracy, but for a whole ethnic
> >group, the indigenous people of Palestine. One of these days
> >(hopefully sooner rather than later) you'll re-assess what you've just
> >written.
>
> When might that be?

I think you're already doing that. I don't expect you to just back
down and admit you are wrong, because a lot of what you say is correct
and fair. You will, however, modify some of your views, and abandon
some of the brutal Israeli hatespeak. I can't understand why you feel
compelled to repeat such crude and distorted anti-Palestinian
rhetoric, and even join in Dershowitz's bitter campaign of
belittlement and defamation of his enemy's dead parents.

That's really desperate, and I think you will abandon it one of these
days.

>
>
>
> > Whatever the
> > legitimacy of criticism towards Israel, they are no better and in fact
> > much
> > worse because what they desire is an oppressive theocratic government
> > which
> > kills people for being gay or denouncing their religion.
> >You don't even know what you're talking about, Weihana.
>
> It's certainly true in Gaza and it's also true to an extent in the West
> Bank.Try being gay, atheist, feminist
> or overly critical and life is hellish.
>
> >You're better
> >than this; you need to do something about repairing your glaring
> >knowledge gap on this issue.
>
> Stop lecturing ,as if you know, you've never actually been there.

I wasn't lecturing him, I was proffering some friendly advice.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:74c1933d-3f4c-4cf4-83f6-32ed677a13b5@l14g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

I have no time for people like that woman, but then I know the majority of
Israelis don't either.

>
> That is definitely not
> what happens in Israel, you can say what you like unless it is
> anti-semitic
> or racist, demonstrate against the government wiithout fear, speak in
> favour
> of equal rights for anyone and everyone without fear and be who you want
> to
> be . You can speak openly in favour of the Palestinians.
>
> Try being a gay person or an an atheist or even a feminist in the
> Palestinian territories .

>Try being any of those in parts of America or Israel. And how do gay
>people, atheists and feminists in the West Bank benefit in any way
>from having their homes demolished, their crops burned, their olive
>trees uprooted and their towns regularly locked down?

Stop trying to be clever Mowissey, you are the one that said Palestinians
are granted free speech
etc....in Gaza and the W Bank. It's bullshit.
Fact: The majority of Israeli Arabs want to remain in Israel as Israeli
citizens after a Palestinian state is mandated.
They know full well they will lose certain freedoms in a Palestinian State
ie. the right to speak freely , mix with who they choose , dress as they
please, be gay,atheist or anything else they wish to be.
Oh and BTW most Israelis agree there is room for improvement in how they
should be treated .

> > If you criticise the authorities you are in trouble.
> >Nonsense. Foreign visitors like Chomsky and Finkelstein have both
> >trenchantly criticized the Hamas government, and so have ordinary
> >Palestinian citizens (or non-persons, if you're of the mindset of
> >Yishai Schwartz or Alan Dershowitz).
>
> They don't live there you nitwit.No one who lives in Gaza publically
> criticises Hamas because they know
> the will pay a high price if they do.

>Hundreds, maybe thousands, of people did exactly that during the U.N.
>fact-finding mission.

You call other people stupid but you said is stupid. Of course they spoke
frankly to the UN because they
knew there would be outrage if they prevented from doing so or if they were
rounded up by Hamas afterwards and dragged off to jail or mysteriously
disappeared..
Look what has happened to members of Fatahin Gaza, how many are dead to
date? Tens of them and many kneecapped, jailed etc....

> The West Bank is much more liberal

>The West Bank suffers under the daily depredations of an
>internationally condemned military occupation. Whether the puppet
>administration there is "liberal" or not is beside the point.

rotflamao.
Conditions in the W Bank are a light world away from Gaza and if you
listened to the news tonight Israel is as we speak removing barriers and
relaxing consitions for Palestinians in the W Bank .

Oh really? Could you cite some evidence to back up that statement,
please?

>You know very well that Finkelstein is as authoritative about Israel,
>Zionism and Palestine as any one man could ever be.

No he isn't, that is a complete load of crap.
He's wrong about a lot of things.and some of the things he says are simply
bizarre.

>Your coarse abuse
>of him says nothing about him, but unfortunately says a great deal
>about yourself.

But then of course you would say that Mo.
You have just done again what you always do .

>
> Oh and BTW why do you think by far the majority of Palestinians want to
> remain in Israel as Israelis and and not live in a Palestinian State?
> They're not stupid.

>
> >That's troubling to me; I would
> >expect you had more integrity.
>
> That's your usual reflex response.If someone doesn't agree with you on
> every
> subject you pontificate upon then they lack integrity.
> It's pathetic and childish.

>I commented on the fact that you are knowingly telling untruths.

That is your opinion but I disagree with you.

That
>does distress me, deeply. You shouldn't throw your principles out the
>window just to score minor points---because those points are then
>inadmissible, and it casts doubt on other things you say.
>
>

Oh now I have thrown my principles out the window. <sigh>

>
> > The jails are full of people who have done it.
> >Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
> >prisoners.
>
> They aren't there because of what they said,

>Yes they are, in almost every case. Or are you saying that human
>rights groups, including B'Tselem are lying?

B'Tselem have never said that most of them are there because of what they
said,
They said some of them are.

You've contradicted yourself in just two sentences. Not that it will
worry you, judging by the aggressive and irrational tone of the rest
of your post.

So now I;m irrational.Stop projecting Mowissey.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

>
> ,sometimes he lies

No he does not.

- show quoted text -

You pontificate on everything Mowissey whether its the situation in the ME
,or sports or Keri
etc........
You think you''re an expert on everything and you look down your nose at
anyone who
disagrees with you,. It's boring and personally it's adolescent.Ite reminds
me of my youth at varsity
when we thought we knew everything,now I know we don't.
Anyone with half a brain knows there is two sides to every story.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Tilly" <femai...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:itu4ci$oap$1@dont-email.me...

- show quoted text -

Fact:

Finkelstein has never been published in an academic journal and taught at a
ï¿½third-rate universityï¿½ in Chicago because he was literally ï¿½kicked out of
every jobï¿½ he had in New York and not because of his political views. He
doesn't even deny it.Reasoned objectivity is not his aim, he's an angry man
and according to him writing is his therapy. ï¿½The only reason I ever write
anything is because I get so angry I start screaming at the pages. My breath
gets short and I start walking around. Itï¿½s just all lies! Rather than
having it locked up inside of me, I write it out.ï¿½

Tilly

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1c52ec7e-8999-4e83-9043-255b9aee6b15@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 23, 1:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> democracy and free speech, you should click on the following links, in
> series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the most
> compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is constantly
> hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>
> While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young student
> politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a brutal
> propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) it s also profoundly disturbing, when
> you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly liberal
> institution like Yale.
>
> NOW READ ON
>
> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/yale/THE_MARKETPLACE_OF_IDEAS_AT...
> knowledgehttp://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update/
>
> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/marketplace-of-ideas-at-yale-update-2/
>
> You expect readers to accept Finkelstein as the font of knowledge on
> Israel, international law and free speech.

>He is all of those things. He is internationally acclaimed as exactly
>that.

It took 13 years for him to earn his doctorate because of his shoddy
research habits.and sloppy work.
He is internationally acclaimed by those that support his
agenda -anti-zionists, holocaust deniers, far leftists and unfortuntely
anti-semites and loons like Ahmadinedjad who constantly quote Finkelstein.

> His book the The Holocaust Industry is full of errors and that's just for
> starters.

>Really? Could you outline just ONE of those errors, Tilly? And, just
>as a matter of interest, have you actually READ it?

Yes I have read it, I have it somewhere .
In the book he claimed that thet the Holocaust and Israel only became
important to American Jews in 1967
because

"Israel now becomes the United States' strategic asset in the Middle East.
It's safe to be pro-Israel. And suddenly American Jewry, Jewish
intellectuals and so forth, become fanatical towards the State of Israel.
It's one of the enduring ironies of the whole conflict. That of all the
Jewish intellectuals who are now fanatical stalwarts of the State of Israel,
until 1967 there were only two public Jewish intellectuals who are publicly
identified as supporting Israel. There are only two. And they were Hannah
Arendt ... the second one was Noam Chomsky.

What a load of crap. In fact, many Jewish intellectuals supported the
Jewish state before 1967, Einstein being one the most well known .He
attended Zionist Conferences on a regualr basis (I have the photos to prove
it,so did my grandmother).He also wrote about his support of a Jewish State.

Many other American-Jewish intellectuals were deeply involved in the Zionist
movement even before the Holocaust. In 1915, U.S. Supreme Court Justice
Louis D. Brandeis wrote about the importance of a Jewish state for the
Jewish people:

Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter also actively promoted the
establishment of a Jewish homeland. In an article for the April 1931 Foreign
Affairs magazine, he wrote that he supported a Jewish state in Palestine.

He singled out Norman Podhoretz, the former editor-in-chief of Commentary,
as a Jewish intellectual who did not support Israel before 1967. Whether he
lied,was just being disingenuous or it was just sloppy journalism he was
wrong.A full 10 years before the Six Day War, Podhoretz wrote a well-known
and highly publicised article about the importance of American Jews making
the case for Israel.

How could Finkelstein :the respected scholar ,researcherand academic"
miss this ? <sarcasm intended>

> But I acknowledge he appeals to far leftists who are two lazy to do real
> research or who are simply uninterested
> in the truth, as long as what he says supports their agenda.

>"Far left" in this case is a technical term, meaning "democratic" and
>"liberal". I don't believe you have read Finkelstein's books or his
>articles, or listened to him speak. You would not have written such
>nonsense if you had.

I have read his books and some of what he says is just plain lies and some
is just plain bizarre.
I'm democratic and left of centre, but I get sick and tired of people who
twist the truth which far leftists and far rightists tend to do..They have
tunnel vision

> Oh and BTW he isn't regarded as an exceptional scholar (unlike Chomsky)
> except by those who utilise his utterings to support their propaganda or
> agenda.

Well, yes he is.

>
> Most scholars regard him as sloppy and a loon.

>Au contraire, Tilly: most scholars recognize and respect Finkelstein's
>scholarship as equal to his great courage and his eloquence. Or have
>you not heard of Noam Chomsky, Raul Hilberg, and Avi Shlaim?

>By the way, Tilly, Alan Dershowitz is not a reliable guide.

Have I quoted Dershowitz? No I haven't, I don't agree with many things he
says either.

>Did you
:>realize that Finkelstein demolished him many years ago, exposing him
>as a fraud and a plagiarist? It makes you look rather foolish when you
>repeat his empty, vicious blather.

And Benny Morris exposed Finkelstein as a plagiarist,citing where he had
quoted verbatim from his work
or where he plucked phrases or sentences and quoted them completely out of
context.

>
> People worthy of
> respect (not Jews) have variously described him as "juvenile," "arrogant,"
> and "stupid" .

>Who said that about him, Tilly? And what does it matter whether
>someone flinging such wretchedly lame insults as those is a Jew or
>not?

>Odd to see you exempting Chomsky from your torrent of abuse. Why don't
>you lump him in with his friend and colleague Finkelstein?

Still, it shows you're not a complete automaton. There's reason for
optimism here.

Think I'll pour myself a celebratory glass of Pimms...

Zev

6/24/11

On Jun 23, 3:07 pm, Mo <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 11:47 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1e0ea5da-bba0-4375-8124-
> > d020f8491...@l9g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jun 23, 11:35 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:609fd002-6d1d-4b7c-af2e-c6e06561d00c@o10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> > >> On Jun 22, 9:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > "Zulu Kilo" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> >news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...
> > >> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >> > >news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-dabfb570328b@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > > Israeli jails are full of thousands of Palestinian political
> > > prisoners.
>
> > Remember Nelson Mandela?
> > Why doesn't the PA launch a similar campaign,
> > for the worst cases at least?
>
> They do, Zev, which you would know if you were even slightly
> interested. It seems you just ignore the vast bulk of Palestinian
> protest, which is non-violent and even on occasion very clever, like
> this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_VOm7i_pA

As usual, a clip which has nothing whatsoever
to do with the issue under discussion.
Another loss by default.

> > I have a simple answer, you probably don't.
>
> I'm sure you have a simple answer,Zev,

As I'm sure you have none.

> and I'm also sure you know
> it's not a truthful one.

Zev

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8a1c9bcd-6eb9-4943-
ab5f-8b97ca407641@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

Thank God, no.
Just selective.

>> > You are being dishonest. Just like you, I
>> > don't agree with those students shouting during Oren's speech. Just as
>> > a matter of interest, do you agree with the secretive, underhand
>> > campaigns to prevent a scholar like Norman Finkelstein speaking at a
>> > university?
>>
>> I don't know anything about it but there is a difference.
>> Oren presents himself as exactly what he is.
>> Finkelstein doesn't.
>
> You're speaking in riddles, Zev. What do you mean?

Oren represents Israel.
Knowing that and listening to him,
one can be on guard for indiscriminant defense of Israel.
Finkelstein pretends to be scholastic,
thus confusing his listeners.

Zev

6/24/11

"Tilly" <femai...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:itvf6n$r9$1@dont-email.me...

> "Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:74c1933d-3f4c-4cf4-83f6-32ed677a13b5@l14g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 12:02 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1e0ea5da-bba0-4375-8124-d020f84915d8@l9g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 23, 11:35 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:609fd002-6d1d-4b7c-af2e-c6e06561d00c@o10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Jun 22, 9:20 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > "Zulu Kilo" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:itrfmm$9it$1@dont-email.me...

>> >Actually, there is as much free speech as there is in Israel. You are
>> >either trying to mislead people here, or you are wholly ignorant. And
>> >you know I know you aren't ignorant.
>>
>> That is totally untrue, free speech is permitted if it's in the line with
>> that of the powers that be and especially if it's negative towards
>> Israel.
>> Say anything positive publically about Israel in Gaza and you will get a
>> visit from Hamas's goons.You will accused of being a collaborator or spy
>> and dragged out of your house.
>> I can absolutely guarantee you that citizens can't publically disagree
>> with
>> or demonstrate against their policies
>> and they don't because people are too afraid to.
>
>>Perhaps you are confusing those lawless, arrogant "settlers" with
>>Hamas. People like this woman...
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJxPgQ9Qx8Y&feature=related
>
>
> I have no time for people like that woman, but then I know the majority of
> Israelis don't either.

What does the clip have to do free speech?

Mo knows there's a lot of bad blood in Hebron.
He knows why too.
If this is the best he has to show that Israelis are like Hamas,
he's lost the argument by default.

>> Try being a gay person or an an atheist or even a feminist in the
>> Palestinian territories .
>
>>Try being any of those in parts of America or Israel. And how do gay
>>people, atheists and feminists in the West Bank benefit in any way
>>from having their homes demolished, their crops burned, their olive
>>trees uprooted and their towns regularly locked down?
>
> Stop trying to be clever Mowissey, you are the one that said Palestinians
> are granted free speech
> etc....in Gaza and the W Bank. It's bullshit.
> Fact: The majority of Israeli Arabs want to remain in Israel as Israeli
> citizens after a Palestinian state is mandated.
> They know full well they will lose certain freedoms in a Palestinian State
> ie. the right to speak freely , mix with who they choose , dress as they
> please, be gay,atheist or anything else they wish to be.

He knows all this, just as he knows why Bethlehem
is now a Muslim city.
He just pretends not to.

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8fbc1142-1ee4-4077-8d29-390315383b96@n5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 23, 12:55 pm, "ZK" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>

snip

>
> Point being that I
> couldn't give a shit about their so-called desire for "democracy" and
> "freedom" because in reality they do not desire such things.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I express contempt for Muslims who profess to desire democracy but lack a
corresponding desire to uphold individual rights, notably the right to
express a point of view offensive to Islam, the right for homosexuals to
live free from persecution, the right of women to have equal standing with
men and for perpetrators of so-called "honour killings" to be brought to
justice, the right to convert Muslims away from the insanity of religion
etc. etc.

If I am wrong about Muslims and their regard for individual liberty, then
please prove me wrong. I would love to be wrong, but from my point of view,
in a world dominated by crazy religions, theirs is the worst of the lot.

Weihana.

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 24, 12:23 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>

snip

> Not once have I ever seen
> you concede you were wrong about something.

You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bursting onto the "scene". lol

Weihana.

Tilly

6/24/11

"ZK" <nzge...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iu0nri$qb5$1@dont-email.me...

>
> "Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 12:23 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
> snip

>> Not once have I ever seento >> you concede you were wrong about

>> something.
>
> You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
> held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the entire time I have been coming to nz.general I can't recall Mowissey
ever modifying
his views which he espouses with an air of superiority and arrogance.

>
> Bursting onto the "scene". lol
>
>
> Weihana.
>
>

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:74c1933d-3f4c-4cf4-83f6-32ed677a13b5@l14g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 24, 12:02 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>

snip

> > Try being a gay person or an an atheist or even a feminist in the
> > Palestinian territories .
>
> Try being any of those in parts of America or Israel.

Bullshit.

"Rights for sexual minorities in Israel are considered to be the most
tolerant in the Middle East. While Israel has not legalized same-sex
marriage, same-sex marriages valid in foreign countries are legally
recognized in Israel.[59][60][dead link] Israel guarantees civil rights for
its homosexual population, including adoption rights and partner
benefits.[61] Israel also grants a common-law marriage status for same-sex
domestic partners. The Sodomy law inherited from the British Mandate of
Palestine was repealed in 1988, though there was an explicit instruction
issued in 1953 by the Attorney General of Israel ordering the police to
refrain from enforcing this law, as long as no other offenses were involved.
A national gay rights law bans some anti-gay discrimination, including in
employment; some exemptions are made for religious organizations. In the
past, military service of homosexuals was subject to certain restrictions.
These restrictions were lifted in 1993, allowing homosexuals to openly serve
in all units of the army.[62]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel#LGBT_rights

According to the International Lesbian and Gay Association, Palestinian
Authority law prohibits sexual relations between two men.[1]

Palestine has no civil right laws that protect LGBT people from
discrimination or harassment. The Palestinian political organizations, both
secular and fundamentalist, tend to avoid the issue of LGBT-rights. Within
the last ten years, two LGBT-organizations have been created by LGBT
Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank;

Same-sex marriages, civil unions or domestic partnerships are not given
legal recognition in Palestine.

Some LGBT Palestinians have fled, legally or illegally, mostly to Israel's
urban centers, like Tel Aviv, seeking tolerance there. There are some
reports of LGBT Arabs and Jews having relationships, thus breaking ethnic,
religious and gender-based taboos[3]. LGBT Jews and Arabs are among the
least prejudiced people in the region, as seen by the cross-cultural
relationships and the fact that gay bars are often a peaceful mixture of
Arabs and Jews[4].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Palestinian_territories

> And how do gay
> people, atheists and feminists in the West Bank benefit in any way
> from having their homes demolished, their crops burned, their olive
> trees uprooted and their towns regularly locked down?

If the Islamo nut jobs focus their hatred on Israel they'll have less time
for the atheists and homosexuals. :-)

Actually, your question is a red herring. The point is not that atheists or
gays etc. will benefit from Israeli military action, rather it is simply to
highlight the fact that Palestinian aspirations for "freedom" are anything
but and that if Palestinians genuinely sought freedom then a political
solution would be possible. As it is, they do not seek freedom they seek to
defeat Israel because they are highly embarrased by Israeli success with
such a limited amount of land amongst a sea of Islamic nations rich in
natural resources which have failed to bring their people the same level of
prosperity.

Weihana.

Morrissey Breen

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 4:44 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>

> news:8a1c9bcd-6eb9-4943-
> ab5f-8b97ca407...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

You want me to speak out on every human rights violation in the world,
obviously. That's absurd, which of course suits you just fine.
Reductio ad absurdum used like you are using it is a surefire way to
divert and destroy a serious argument.

I will not, however, be distracted by that. So instead of your
ridiculous diversionary tactic of insisting I speak on one hundred
other topics, how about we stick to the one at hand?

>
> >> > You are being dishonest. Just like you, I
> >> > don't agree with those students shouting during Oren's speech. Just as
> >> > a matter of interest, do you agree with the secretive, underhand
> >> > campaigns to prevent a scholar like Norman Finkelstein speaking at a
> >> > university?
>
> >> I don't know anything about it but there is a difference.
> >> Oren presents himself as exactly what he is.
> >> Finkelstein doesn't.
>
> > You're speaking in riddles, Zev. What do you mean?
>
> Oren represents Israel.
> Knowing that and listening to him,
> one can be on guard for indiscriminant defense of Israel.
> Finkelstein pretends to be scholastic,
> thus confusing his listeners.

You can pretend that Finkelstein isn't a scholar if you like. If you
are serious about that (and I don't think you are) then you are waving
good-bye to serious and rational discussion. But before you take leave
of all common sense, could you tell us why, if Finkelstein is
"pretending" to be a scholar, he is lauded for his scholarship by the
leading Jewish scholars in Israel, the United States and Israel?

Morrissey Breen

6/24/11

- show quoted text -

Weihana, you're out of your depth. You really do need to take some
time off and read seriously.

Morrissey Breen

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 3:34 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "ZK" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:iu0nri$qb5$1@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
> > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> >news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 24, 12:23 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > snip
> >> Not once have I ever seento >> you concede you were wrong about
> >> something.
>
> > You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
> > held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In the entire time I have been coming to nz.general I can't recall Mowissey
> ever modifying his views

Then you have clearly not been reading the Breen oeuvre with the care
and diligence required to make such a momentous judgement.

>
> which he espouses with an air of superiority and arrogance.

I certainly feel superior to Weihana on this issue, as he clearly
knows absolutely nothing. Pointing that out is not arrogance; it's
called rigour, Tilly. Rigour.

Or is it rigor?

6/24/11

"Morrissey Breen" <morriss...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:168265f4-070c-4390-ae4d-552bad4d3157@t38g2000prj.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So prove me wrong instead of being a patronizing twat.

Show me that Muslims, generally speaking, appreciate the right of an
individual to blaspheme, that they desire LGBT equality, that they don't
mind if atheists like myself try to convert Muslims away from their
religious insanity. Just one cite will do if it's a good one.
Unfortunately I am skeptical that you could provide any such cite, except
perhaps to a nutcase website or organization, because from my observation
every respectable organization ranks protection of civil rights in the
Muslim world as being relatively weak or non-existent.

Weihana.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Mo" <morriss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:74c1933d-3f4c-4cf4-83f6-32ed677a13b5@l14g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

Really?.

Finkelstein has repeatedly been criticized for extreme dishonesty in his
"scholarship."

For example, Peter Novick, a University of Chicago professor **whom
Finkelstein has cited as an inspiration,** wrote in London's Jewish
Chronicle that Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry is characterized by
"false accusations," "egregious misrepresentations," "absurd claims" and
"repeated mis-statements" ("A charge into darkness that sheds no light,"
July 28, 2000).

"No facts alleged by Finkelstein should be assumed to be really facts, no
quotation in his book should be assumed to be accurate, without taking the
time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites," Novick
later warned. (Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Feb. 7, 2001)

It is little surprise then that Finkelstein's defense of
Carter-**specifically, his citing of Israeli historian Benny Morris in order
to support Carter's accusation of Israeli apartheid- is itself specious.**

At Stanford, Finkelstein mentioned and cited Morris while arguing that the
premise of Carter's book is not controversial, but rather widely accepted.
Finklestein was more explicit in a Dec. 28, 2006 piece he wrote for
Counterpunch where he cites Morris in support of the following assertion:

No aspect of Carter's book has evoked more outrage than its identification
of Israeli policy in the Occupied Palestinian Territory with apartheid.

Finkelstein then names Morris twice in the paragraphs that follow,
suggesting that the Israeli historian is one of those "informed
commentators" who agrees with Carter's apartheid comparison.

Morris was outraged about Finklestein's : citations and comments.

QUOTE:

Norman Finkelstein is a notorious distorter of facts and of my work, not a
serious or honest historian.

Israel is not an apartheid state - rather the opposite, it is easily the
most democratic and politically egalitarian state in the Middle East, in
which Arab Israelis enjoy far more freedom, better social services, etc.
than in all the Arab states surrounding it. Indeed, Arab representatives in
the Knesset, who continuously call for dismantling the Jewish state, support
the Hezbollah, etc., enjoy more freedom than many Western democracies give
their internal oppositions. (The U.S. would prosecute and jail Congressmen
calling for the overthrow of the U.S. Govt. or the demise of the U.S.) The
best comparison would be the treatment of Japanese Americans by the US Govt
... and the British Govt. [incarceration] of German emigres in Britain WWII
... Israel's Arabs by and large identify with Israel's enemies, the
Palestinians. But Israel hasn't jailed or curtailed their freedoms en masse
(since 1966 [when Israel lifted its state of martial law]).

[Morris later added: "Israel ... has not jailed tens of thousands of Arabs
indiscriminately out fear that they might support the Arab states warring
with Israel; it did not do so in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 or 1982 - despite
the Israeli Arabs' support for the enemy Arab states."]

As to the occupied territories, Israeli policy is fueled by security
considerations (whether one agrees with them or not, or with all the
specific measures adopted at any given time) rather than racism (though, to
be sure, there are Israelis who are motivated by racism in their attitude
and actions towards Arabs) - and indeed the Arab population suffers as a
result. But Gaza's and the West Bank's population (Arabs) are not Israeli
citizens and cannot expect to benefit from the same rights as Israeli
citizens so long as the occupation or semi-occupation (more accurately)
continues, which itself is a function of the continued state of war between
the Hamas-led Palestinians (and their Syrian and other Arab allies) and
Israel..

So much for Finklesteins honesty and good scholarship!! And this is just one
example.

- show quoted text -

I have a Big Johnson

6/24/11

IS this the battle of the faggots and the kyke dyke? Take it elsewhere will
ya?

"Morrissey Breen" <morriss...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:0df21337-46b7-414f-b0d5-75b24f36deac@d1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 24, 4:44 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:8a1c9bcd-6eb9-4943-
>> ab5f-8b97ca407...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 23, 11:52 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> On Jun 23, 1:57 am, Mo <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Jun 22, 5:19 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-
>> >> > > dabfb5703...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > > > Stomping on Dissent at Yale
>> >> > > > If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
>> >> > > > democracy and free speech, you should click on the following
>> >> > > > links,
>> >> > > > in
>> >> > > > series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the
>> >> > > > most
>> >> > > > compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is
>> >> > > > constantly
>> >> > > > hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>>
>> >> > > > While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young
>> >> > > > student
>> >> > > > politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a
>> >> > > > brutal

>> >> > > > propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) itï¿½s also profoundly disturbing,

>> >> > > > when
>> >> > > > you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly
>> >> > > > liberal
>> >> > > > institution like Yale.
>>

>> >> > > > NOW READ ONï¿½

- show quoted text -

2 messages have been deleted.

Zev

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 10:05 am, Msgr Scooter <mfr.sitbwo...@fathoming.you.123>
wrote:
> On , , Fri, 24 Jun 2011 01:30:59 +1200, Re: Stomping on Dissent at Yale, "Tilly"
> <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Conditions in the W Bank are a light world away from Gaza and if you
> >listened to the news tonight Israel is as we speak removing barriers and
> >relaxing consitions for Palestinians in the W Bank .
>

> Then why are the zionists building a wall even higher than the Berlin Wall to
> keep Palestinians out?

It started after they killed too many Israelis.
But you know that.
Why did you ask?

Zev

6/24/11

"Morrissey Breen" <morriss...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0df21337-46b7-414f-
b0d5-75b24f36deac@d1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 24, 4:44 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:8a1c9bcd-6eb9-4943-
>> ab5f-8b97ca407...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Jun 23, 11:52 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> On Jun 23, 1:57 am, Mo <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Jun 22, 5:19 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> >> > No, I am not selective, Zev.
>>
>> >> Why didn't you bring it up when it happened?
>>
>> > What? Suddenly I'm the world's policeman, now?
>>
>> Thank God, no.
>> Just selective.
>
> You want me to speak out on every human rights violation in the world,
> obviously. That's absurd, which of course suits you just fine.
> Reductio ad absurdum used like you are using it is a surefire way to
> divert and destroy a serious argument.
>
> I will not, however, be distracted by that. So instead of your
> ridiculous diversionary tactic of insisting I speak on one hundred
> other topics, how about we stick to the one at hand?

A "serious argument" would discuss "human rights violations"
instead of tendentiously chosen events.

>> >> > You are being dishonest. Just like you, I
>> >> > don't agree with those students shouting during Oren's speech. Just
>> >> > as
>> >> > a matter of interest, do you agree with the secretive, underhand
>> >> > campaigns to prevent a scholar like Norman Finkelstein speaking at a
>> >> > university?
>>
>> >> I don't know anything about it but there is a difference.
>> >> Oren presents himself as exactly what he is.
>> >> Finkelstein doesn't.
>>
>> > You're speaking in riddles, Zev. What do you mean?
>>
>> Oren represents Israel.
>> Knowing that and listening to him,
>> one can be on guard for indiscriminant defense of Israel.
>> Finkelstein pretends to be scholastic,
>> thus confusing his listeners.
>
> You can pretend that Finkelstein isn't a scholar if you like. If you
> are serious about that (and I don't think you are) then you are waving
> good-bye to serious and rational discussion. But before you take leave
> of all common sense, could you tell us why, if Finkelstein is
> "pretending" to be a scholar, he is lauded for his scholarship by the
> leading Jewish scholars in Israel, the United States and Israel?

I'm anxiously awaiting your response to Tilly's
detailed posts on this subject.
But with your history of running away from threads,
I'm not holding my breath.

But I remember our last conversation on this issue,
where Finkelstein chose to discuss a silly plagiarism issue,
instead of something far more important,
Dershowitz's treatment of collateral damage
and proportional response.
A scholar wouldn't have done that.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Zev" <zev_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f2809bf-e62c-45af-a805-4eaa142b2fc4@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

Nothing, it has to do with a settler behaving badly.

>
> Mo knows there's a lot of bad blood in Hebron.
> He knows why too.

Somehow I doubt it, but I have to say the behaviour of many of the settlers
in Hebron
is abhorrent.

> If this is the best he has to show that Israelis are like Hamas,
> he's lost the argument by default.

>
>>> Try being a gay person or an an atheist or even a feminist in the
>>> Palestinian territories .
>>
>>>Try being any of those in parts of America or Israel. And how do gay
>>>people, atheists and feminists in the West Bank benefit in any way
>>>from having their homes demolished, their crops burned, their olive
>>>trees uprooted and their towns regularly locked down?

>>
>> Stop trying to be clever Mowissey, you are the one that said Palestinians
>> are granted free speech
>> etc....in Gaza and the W Bank. It's bullshit.
>> Fact: The majority of Israeli Arabs want to remain in Israel as Israeli
>> citizens after a Palestinian state is mandated.
>> They know full well they will lose certain freedoms in a Palestinian
>> State
>> ie. the right to speak freely , mix with who they choose , dress as they
>> please, be gay,atheist or anything else they wish to be.
>
> He knows all this, just as he knows why Bethlehem
> is now a Muslim city.
> He just pretends not to.

Zev

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 8:14 am, Morrissey Breen <morrisseybr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 24, 3:34 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "ZK" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:iu0nri$qb5$1@dont-email.me...
>
> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jun 24, 12:23 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > > snip
> > >> Not once have I ever seento >> you concede you were wrong about
> > >> something.
>
> > > You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
> > > held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.
>
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > In the entire time I have been coming to nz.general I can't recall Mowissey
> > ever modifying his views
>
> Then you have clearly not been reading the Breen oeuvre with the care
> and diligence required to make such a momentous judgement.

I've seen you run away from threads,
apparently to avoid disgrace,
and come back a few months later
with the same ignorant nonsense.

> > which he espouses with an air of superiority and arrogance.
>
> I certainly feel superior to Weihana on this issue, as he clearly
> knows absolutely nothing. Pointing that out is not arrogance; it's
> called rigour, Tilly. Rigour.

Have you ever been to the ME?
Do you understand any ME languages?
What do *you* know, Mo?

Tilly

6/24/11

"Msgr Scooter" <mfr.sitbwolgu@fathoming.you.123> wrote in message
news:fmd807p6djvcsaodmigv6c7251cpnqci5q@4ax.com...

> On , , Fri, 24 Jun 2011 01:30:59 +1200, Re: Stomping on Dissent at Yale,
> "Tilly"

> <femai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Conditions in the W Bank are a light world away from Gaza and if you
>>listened to the news tonight Israel is as we speak removing barriers and
>>relaxing consitions for Palestinians in the W Bank .
>
> Then why are the zionists building a wall even higher than the Berlin Wall
> to
> keep Palestinians out?
>

Do you really have to ask? The wall was built when Israelis were regularly
getting blown up on buses,in restaurants , hotels etc....It was built to
keep the bombers/terrorists out and there is no denying it has worked.
When and if peace breaks out it will come down.

Tilly

6/24/11

- show quoted text -

Tilly

6/24/11

"Msgr Scooter" <mfr.sitbwolgu@fathoming.you.123> wrote in message

news:bud807hc7e3j6qmaejcrptpf9v8uffkjdb@4ax.com...
> On , , Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:23:18 +1200, Re: Stomping on Dissent at Yale,
> "Tilly"

> <femai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>You're better
>>>than this; you need to do something about repairing your glaring
>>>knowledge gap on this issue.
>>
>>Stop lecturing ,as if you know, you've never actually been there.
>

> Nor have you either.
> You have never been to Israel.
> All your claims are lies, you are merely a paid propagandist employed by a
> zionist group.
> You have been promised a trip to Israel if you continue to agitprop here.
> So don't lie to us, especially when we know better.
> --

I used to live there ,but then you already know that.

Tilly

6/24/11

"Morrissey Breen" <morriss...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0df21337-46b7-414f-b0d5-75b24f36deac@d1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 24, 4:44 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8a1c9bcd-6eb9-4943-
> ab5f-8b97ca407...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 23, 11:52 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 23, 1:57 am, Mo <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > On Jun 22, 5:19 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:31f4365a-4fa6-436b-a68f-
> >> > > dabfb5703...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > > > Stomping on Dissent at Yale
> >> > > > If you care about the question of Palestine, and indeed about
> >> > > > democracy and free speech, you should click on the following
> >> > > > links,
> >> > > > in
> >> > > > series. Each one builds on the next. You can see how one of the
> >> > > > most
> >> > > > compelling speakers and scholars in the United States is
> >> > > > constantly
> >> > > > hounded by the enemies of democracy and free speech.
>
> >> > > > While in a way, this is a painfully funny example of a young
> >> > > > student
> >> > > > politician (Stephen Marsh) being browbeaten and bullied by a
> >> > > > brutal

> >> > > > propagandist (Yishai Schwarz) itï¿½s also profoundly disturbing,

> >> > > > when
> >> > > > you reflect that this is what happens even at a supposedly
> >> > > > liberal
> >> > > > institution like Yale.
>

> >> > > > NOW READ ONï¿½

- show quoted text -

rotflmao

Morrissey Breen

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 5:21 pm, "ZK" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Morrissey Breen" <morrisseybr...@gmail.com> wrote in message

- show quoted text -

"Prove you wrong"? As is painfully obvious to anyone who reads your
posts, you know nothing about this subject. Telling you that, and
advising you to actually do some hard intellectual work and READ, is
not patronizing, it's telling you what needs to be done if you want to
be taken seriously.

At the moment, your contribution here is entirely vacuous.

...<Snip ignorant opinions about Muslims.>...

Morrissey Breen

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 8:21 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Msgr Scooter" <mfr.sitbwo...@fathoming.you.123> wrote in message

>
> news:fmd807p6djvcsaodmigv6c7251cpnqci5q@4ax.com...
>
> > On , , Fri, 24 Jun 2011 01:30:59 +1200, Re: Stomping on Dissent at Yale,
> > "Tilly"

> > <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>Conditions in the W Bank are a light world away from Gaza and if you
> >>listened to the news tonight Israel is as we speak removing barriers and
> >>relaxing consitions for Palestinians in the W Bank .
>
> > Then why are the zionists building a wall even higher than the Berlin Wall
> > to
> > keep Palestinians out?
>
> Do you really have to ask? The wall was built when Israelis were regularly
> getting blown up on buses,in restaurants , hotels etc....It was built to
> keep the bombers/terrorists out and there is no denying it has worked.
> When and if peace breaks out it will come down.

The wall is in violation of international law. It was built to steal
Palestinian land. You know that, of course.

Still, at least Weihana is lapping up what you say.

2 messages have been deleted.

Morrissey Breen

6/24/11

On Jun 24, 7:54 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 24, 8:14 am, Morrissey Breen <morrisseybr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 24, 3:34 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "ZK" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:iu0nri$qb5$1@dont-email.me...
>
> > > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jun 24, 12:23 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > snip
> > > >> Not once have I ever seento >> you concede you were wrong about
> > > >> something.
>
> > > > You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
> > > > held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.
>
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > In the entire time I have been coming to nz.general I can't recall Mowissey
> > > ever modifying his views
>
> > Then you have clearly not been reading the Breen oeuvre with the care
> > and diligence required to make such a momentous judgement.
>
> I've seen you run away from threads,
> apparently to avoid disgrace,

Actually, it's usually exhaustion, Zev. I don't run away, as you
allege; it is simply pointless if an adversary resorts to crude
rhetorical tricks (e.g., argumentum ad absurdum) and starts taking
leave of reality. Your completely dishonest, willfully untrue
statements about Norman Finkelstein show that you are not prepared to
discuss the issues rationally or in a liberal spirit. It's like trying
to talk about science with one of those people who insists that
Charles Darwin was a fraud.

>
> and come back a few months later
> with the same ignorant nonsense.
>
> > > which he espouses with an air of superiority and arrogance.
>
> > I certainly feel superior to Weihana on this issue, as he clearly
> > knows absolutely nothing. Pointing that out is not arrogance; it's
> > called rigour, Tilly. Rigour.
>
> Have you ever been to the ME?

No, not yet.

>
> Do you understand any ME languages?

Sadly, no.

>
> What do *you* know, Mo?

I know what I've read and studied, which is a great deal. Of course, I
don't know enough, and I'm insufficiently informed about many aspects
of the situation. You and Tilly and many others know far more than I
do, and you both know that you're indulging in gross intellectual
dishonesty by repeating the canards of Alan Dershowitz, who has
devoted the rest of his life to avenging himself on the man who
established beyond any doubt that he is an intellectual fraud and a
plagiarist.

Zev

6/25/11

"Morrissey Breen" <morriss...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:ded70fc7-b0b8-46ef-
afea-578dddf20ca5@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 24, 7:54 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 24, 8:14 am, Morrissey Breen <morrisseybr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Jun 24, 3:34 pm, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > "ZK" <nzgene...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:iu0nri$qb5$1@dont-email.me...
>> > > > "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > > >news:5c84e5fc-1590-462a-b680-12602fbea935@h12g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>> > > > On Jun 24, 12:23 am, "Tilly" <femail1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> "Mo" <morrisseybr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>> > > >> Not once have I ever seento >> you concede you were wrong about

>> > > >> something.
>>
>> > > > You're wrong. I have modified, even abandoned many positions I have
>> > > > held since bursting onto the nz.general scene in February 2003.
>>
>> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> > > In the entire time I have been coming to nz.general I can't recall
>> > > Mowissey
>> > > ever modifying his views
>>
>> > Then you have clearly not been reading the Breen oeuvre with the care
>> > and diligence required to make such a momentous judgement.
>>
>> I've seen you run away from threads,
>> apparently to avoid disgrace,
>
> Actually, it's usually exhaustion, Zev. I don't run away, as you
> allege; it is simply pointless if an adversary resorts to crude
> rhetorical tricks (e.g., argumentum ad absurdum) and starts taking
> leave of reality.

Sure...

> Your completely dishonest, willfully untrue
> statements about Norman Finkelstein show that you are not prepared to
> discuss the issues rationally or in a liberal spirit. It's like trying
> to talk about science with one of those people who insists that
> Charles Darwin was a fraud.

Wow, are you going to feel like a jerk when you read Tilly's post...

>> and come back a few months later
>> with the same ignorant nonsense.
>>
>> > > which he espouses with an air of superiority and arrogance.
>>
>> > I certainly feel superior to Weihana on this issue, as he clearly
>> > knows absolutely nothing. Pointing that out is not arrogance; it's
>> > called rigour, Tilly. Rigour.
>>
>> Have you ever been to the ME?
>
> No, not yet.
>
>>
>> Do you understand any ME languages?
>
> Sadly, no.
>
>>
>> What do *you* know, Mo?
>
> I know what I've read and studied, which is a great deal. Of course, I
> don't know enough, and I'm insufficiently informed about many aspects
> of the situation. You and Tilly and many others know far more than I
> do, and you both know that you're indulging in gross intellectual
> dishonesty by repeating the canards of Alan Dershowitz, who has
> devoted the rest of his life to avenging himself on the man who
> established beyond any doubt that he is an intellectual fraud and a
> plagiarist.

Dershowitz is a recognized historian, or scholar of the ME?
Why did you drag his name into this paragraph?

Tilly

6/25/11

"Morrissey Breen" <morriss...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ded70fc7-b0b8-46ef-afea-578dddf20ca5@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

No, not yet.

- show quoted text -

Sadly, no.

- show quoted text -

__________________________________________________________________________________

Oh really? I already told you earlier in this thread that I don't agree with
some of the things Dershowitz says.
You on the other hand suck up every word Finklestein says and takes it as
gospel.

Tilly

6/25/11

"Zev" <zev_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:ba46e283-6a7d-4394-ab3a-847e3904ba6d@m9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

- show quoted text -

Because Finkelstein alleges Dershowitz was responsible for the loss of his
university tenure.
There was more than one reason, one of which was that Finklestein to refused
to submit any
papers for peer review.

Page 3

The Breen Report

Thursday, 25 January 2018

Stomping on Dissent at Yale (June 22, 2011)

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