Questions for oral answer
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Date:
3 May 2011
Related documents
Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) for Tuesday, 3 May 2011
Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) Questions for Oral Answer — Questions
to Ministers
5. SAS, Afghanistan—Prisoners
Date:
3 May 2011
Related documents
Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) for Tuesday, 3 May 2011
Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) Questions for Oral Answer — Questions
to Ministers
5. SAS, Afghanistan—Prisoners
[Volume:672;Page:18247]
5. KEITH LOCKE (Green) to the Minister of Defence: Has New Zealand’s
SAS detained anyone during its operations or joint operations with
other forces since being redeployed to Afghanistan in 2009?
SAS detained anyone during its operations or joint operations with
other forces since being redeployed to Afghanistan in 2009?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP (Minister of Defence) : On 30 January the New
Zealand SAS detained a mid-level Taliban commander in response to a
tasking by the International Security Assistance Force, because the
Afghan authorities, including the crisis response unit, were not
available at the time. That person was transferred to a United States
facility at Bagram, and is now being held at a joint US-Afghan
facility at Parwan. The detainee is being monitored by New Zealand
officials in accordance with our responsibilities under international
law. The last visit to the detainee was by New Zealand officials on 25
April. His principal complaint was that he was unhappy at being held
by infidels, but had no other concerns. I might note that on these
issues the Government relies on the professional competence and
honesty of the New Zealand Defence Force, and not on the unreliable,
disproven allegations—
Zealand SAS detained a mid-level Taliban commander in response to a
tasking by the International Security Assistance Force, because the
Afghan authorities, including the crisis response unit, were not
available at the time. That person was transferred to a United States
facility at Bagram, and is now being held at a joint US-Afghan
facility at Parwan. The detainee is being monitored by New Zealand
officials in accordance with our responsibilities under international
law. The last visit to the detainee was by New Zealand officials on 25
April. His principal complaint was that he was unhappy at being held
by infidels, but had no other concerns. I might note that on these
issues the Government relies on the professional competence and
honesty of the New Zealand Defence Force, and not on the unreliable,
disproven allegations—
Mr SPEAKER: It was a very straightforward question. The Minister
answered it very well, and we did not need the last bit.
answered it very well, and we did not need the last bit.
Keith Locke: On how many other occasions have prisoners been taken,
particularly given the fact that at the select committee hearing of
the Defence Force in June last year the Government said that up until
that point—that is, 2009-10—our SAS had been “in the vicinity” on 22
occasions when prisoners had been taken?
particularly given the fact that at the select committee hearing of
the Defence Force in June last year the Government said that up until
that point—that is, 2009-10—our SAS had been “in the vicinity” on 22
occasions when prisoners had been taken?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP: I am advised that people have been arrested by the
crisis response unit on 24 occasions when New Zealand has been in
support. I might note that the crisis response unit is accompanied by
a prosecutor from the Afghan Attorney-General’s office, who actually
authorises the arrests.
crisis response unit on 24 occasions when New Zealand has been in
support. I might note that the crisis response unit is accompanied by
a prosecutor from the Afghan Attorney-General’s office, who actually
authorises the arrests.
Keith Locke: Does the Government accept any responsibility for the
prisoners taken on joint operations between our SAS and the crisis
response unit, or are we simply trusting the Afghan Government, which
has a very bad record of mistreating prisoners in detainment?
prisoners taken on joint operations between our SAS and the crisis
response unit, or are we simply trusting the Afghan Government, which
has a very bad record of mistreating prisoners in detainment?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP: The Afghan authorities, of course, are the
detaining or arresting authorities under those circumstances. However,
we do understand that in the past the Afghan Government has had some
deficiencies. That is why NATO’s International Security Assistance
Force headquarters in Kabul has a committee to monitor the conditions
at the various facilities, including the National Directorate of
Security at Kabul. A number of nations, including Australia and
Canada, which directly transfer detainees to the National Directorate
of Security, monitor those facilities. New Zealand has supplied a
defence legal officer to the NATO - International Security Assistance
Force headquarters to improve our own monitoring. We are advised that
the NATO - International Security Assistance Force headquarters now
regards the facility in Kabul as the detention facility of choice, and
actually directs NATO - International Security Assistance Force
nations to use this facility because it is in fact properly monitored.
detaining or arresting authorities under those circumstances. However,
we do understand that in the past the Afghan Government has had some
deficiencies. That is why NATO’s International Security Assistance
Force headquarters in Kabul has a committee to monitor the conditions
at the various facilities, including the National Directorate of
Security at Kabul. A number of nations, including Australia and
Canada, which directly transfer detainees to the National Directorate
of Security, monitor those facilities. New Zealand has supplied a
defence legal officer to the NATO - International Security Assistance
Force headquarters to improve our own monitoring. We are advised that
the NATO - International Security Assistance Force headquarters now
regards the facility in Kabul as the detention facility of choice, and
actually directs NATO - International Security Assistance Force
nations to use this facility because it is in fact properly monitored.
Keith Locke: Will the Government make public the text of the agreement
between the Afghan and New Zealand Governments, signed on 12 August
2009, on the treatment of prisoners, and publish it either in full or
in an abbreviated form?
between the Afghan and New Zealand Governments, signed on 12 August
2009, on the treatment of prisoners, and publish it either in full or
in an abbreviated form?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP: This question has been asked before at the select
committee, and indeed in this Parliament. The document is being kept
confidential at the request of the Afghan authorities. However, I have
indicated to the select committee that one of the provisions of the
document does require the Afghan authorities to observe the norms of
international law.
committee, and indeed in this Parliament. The document is being kept
confidential at the request of the Afghan authorities. However, I have
indicated to the select committee that one of the provisions of the
document does require the Afghan authorities to observe the norms of
international law.
Keith Locke: What evidence did the Government obtain on the subsequent
mistreatment of prisoners handed over by the SAS to American
jurisdiction after the raid in Band e Timur in 2002, and does it
square with the evidence that journalist Jon Stephenson obtained from
those affected?
mistreatment of prisoners handed over by the SAS to American
jurisdiction after the raid in Band e Timur in 2002, and does it
square with the evidence that journalist Jon Stephenson obtained from
those affected?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP: It is certainly acknowledged that there was
mistreatment in 2002. That was complained of at the time by our senior
officers present at the time. Subsequently over the years under the
previous Government, which included the current Leader of the
Opposition, procedures were improved on the part of the New Zealand
Government in that regard. But essentially that is the responsibility
of the United States Government, which realises of course that the
events that occurred back then would not meet appropriate standards.
mistreatment in 2002. That was complained of at the time by our senior
officers present at the time. Subsequently over the years under the
previous Government, which included the current Leader of the
Opposition, procedures were improved on the part of the New Zealand
Government in that regard. But essentially that is the responsibility
of the United States Government, which realises of course that the
events that occurred back then would not meet appropriate standards.
Keith Locke: Has the Government done anything to follow up on the
welfare of the Afghan civilians who were mistreated and tortured on
that occasion, in order to provide some form of compensation, for
example, given that it was the SAS that handed them over to
mistreatment at that point?
welfare of the Afghan civilians who were mistreated and tortured on
that occasion, in order to provide some form of compensation, for
example, given that it was the SAS that handed them over to
mistreatment at that point?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP: Well, the mistreating authority was in fact the
United States; surely the responsibility must lie with the United
States, not New Zealand.
United States; surely the responsibility must lie with the United
States, not New Zealand.
Keith Locke: Will the Government allow an independent inquiry to be
held, so that the hard-won evidence of the journalist Jon Stephenson
and the evidence that the Government has can be put to independent
examination, and the full facts of whether New Zealand is handing over
prisoners to mistreatment or failing to follow them up properly in
Afghan detention can be brought out into the public domain?
held, so that the hard-won evidence of the journalist Jon Stephenson
and the evidence that the Government has can be put to independent
examination, and the full facts of whether New Zealand is handing over
prisoners to mistreatment or failing to follow them up properly in
Afghan detention can be brought out into the public domain?
Hon Dr WAYNE MAPP: Can I say this: the New Zealand Defence Force has
investigated the allegations by Mr Stephenson—particularly those
relating to 2002. Those allegations have been proven to be false, and
I am frankly surprised that Mr Locke continues to rely on those
allegations, which have been proven to be false. I also say on this
issue that the National Government—and, I would like to think, other
members in this House—believes the information given to us by the New
Zealand Defence Force. I believe Lieutenant General Jerry Matepārae
and Lieutenant General Jones on this issue.
investigated the allegations by Mr Stephenson—particularly those
relating to 2002. Those allegations have been proven to be false, and
I am frankly surprised that Mr Locke continues to rely on those
allegations, which have been proven to be false. I also say on this
issue that the National Government—and, I would like to think, other
members in this House—believes the information given to us by the New
Zealand Defence Force. I believe Lieutenant General Jerry Matepārae
and Lieutenant General Jones on this issue.
Keith Locke: I seek leave to table an article by Jon Stephenson in the
May issue of Metro—
May issue of Metro—
Mr SPEAKER: We don't need to table stuff from recent magazines.
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