Tuesday, 9 January 2018

Standardisti discuss Assange, and Pussy Riot (Aug. 17, 2012)

  1. Pascal's bookie19
    This Guardian editorial is very good, and it confirms that it would be easier to be extradited form the UK to the Us than from Sweden:
    No one should be naïve about the US, but this is a fallacious chain of reasoning. The US has not said whether it wants to detain Mr Assange, though it has had plenty of time to do so. If it wanted his extradition, the US might logically be more likely to make use of Britain’s excessively generous extradition treaty with the US – which has not happened – rather than wait until he was in Sweden, when both Sweden and the UK would have to sign off on any extradition application. And neither Sweden nor the UK would in any case deport someone who might face torture or the death penalty. Ecuador’s own human rights record is also far from exemplary, as Human Rights Watch has made clear.
    It also talks about how Assange may be damaging the diplomatic norms around refugee status and asylum, by claiming them when he is facing criminal, rather than polical, threats.
    • Colonial Viper19.1
      This Guardian editorial is very good, and it confirms that it would be easier to be extradited form the UK to the Us than from Sweden:
      There’s a simple plausible explanation. Assange has more influential/connected supporters in the UK than in Sweden. So while it would be legally easier to extradite Assange to the US from the UK…the political will is not present to do so directly.
      In addition, it is impossible to confirm or deny whether or not the US has already convened a Grand Jury against Assange, and what the outcomes of that Grand Jury has been/will be.
      • McFlock19.1.1
        Got evidence for that explanation?
        • Colonial Viper19.1.1.1
          No hard evidence, except Assange was given safe haven and considerable monies by well known supporters in the UK.
          • McFlock19.1.1.1.1
            He seemed to be popular in Sweden. 
            • Colonial Viper19.1.1.1.1.1
              Not that it did him any good in the long run.
              • McFlock
                It could just be that influential supporters don’t interfere in criminal proceedings – like how the UK extradition thing didn’t go his way.
                   
                Much better for him to have a friend in a president who can make it a political decision. 
                • Colonial Viper
                  hey I think Assange should answer to Swedish authorities asap. No argument there.
                  • McFlock
                    Provided they agree to his conditions.
                    • Colonial Viper
                      The single condition not to be placed into the hands of a third party unrelated to the women complainants? Seems not unreasonable to me. And it would significantly progress the criminal investigation against Assange while protecting judicial outcomes for the Swedish women complainants.
                    • Te Reo Putake
                      Why should Sweden do this? What is so special about Assange that Sweden should change its laws for him?
                    • RedLogix
                      What is so special about Assange that Sweden should change its laws for him?
                      Because of his services to democracy in exposing damning secrets and lies he has made powerful enemies. Unquestionably he is a special case.
                      What is interesting is your wilful inability to acknowledge the obvious.
                    • Colonial Viper
                      Why should Sweden do this?
                      To progress to the stage of laying (or abandoning) criminal charges against Assange. That’s worth something good.
                    • McFlock
                      I missed the bit where Assange gave the promise to leave the embassy and face proceedings if Sweden made promises to change its laws and extradition treaties to his convenience. Got a link?
                    • RedLogix
                      Yet the bizzare thing is CV is that all of us who have the brains god gave geese know that if it was anyone other than Assange the whole investigation and extradition would never have seen the faintest glimmer of daylight.
                    • Colonial Viper
                      RL – Yep. I’m sure the Swedish and the UK govts go to the same amount of trouble on a monthly basis for the UK football yahoos who visit Sweden.
                    • McFlock
                      RL, is that a complaint that Sweden is actually doing what they should be doing all along? I.e. actively pursuing sexual assault investigations?
                                 
                      Do you want them to do more of it, or stop doing it altogether?
                       
                    • Colonial Viper
                      BS McFlock. If Sweden were in fact “actively pursuing” the allegations against Assange why haven’t they taken every opportunity to question him?
                      Formal charges would be right up.
                    • McFlock
                      Because there’s no point interviewing him if charges won’t be laid. And charges won’t be laid if he goes to Ecuador. So why bother?
                                   
                       But if he gets sent back to Sweden, then charges can be laid after the interview. So there is a need for the interview. So charges can be laid.
                    • RedLogix
                      So why bother with the extradition? How about just getting on a plane to the UK and interviewing him there? I mean if the crime was all so serious and all….
                      Nah … none of this makes any sense whatsoever.
                    • McFlock
                      Jesus RL,
                      why would they interview him if the interview might result in formal charges, but formal charges couldn’t be laid?
                         
                      What more would that do? They already had a European arrest warrant, extradition proceedings and successful defenses of appeals to those proceedings? An interview without the possibility of arrest and charges is a pointless exercise.
                    • RedLogix
                      Police routinely fly to other countries to interview suspects before instigating extradition. Once they have done that then charges may or may not follow.
                      (Which to my understanding have still not been formally made…)
                    • McFlock
                      Indeed. Before extradition. Extradition succeeded, remember? And no extradition from Ecuador, because of their presidents’ new-found respect for human rights.  
                       
                      So why bother?
                    • RedLogix
                      An extradition which if it had been anyone other than Assange would never have happened …
                      Get real.
                    • McFlock
                      So are you bitching that the swedes aren’t doing enough for all sexual assault investigations, or simply that they are unfairly taking this one seriously?
                         
                       
                      And you call that a source? You get real: on the “not charged, just wanted for questioning” point for a start it ignores the fact that the UK courts said that if the allegations had been made in the UK, he would have been charged already,  because the UK lays charges earlier in the process than Sweden does.
                         
                       Yet more “sex by surprise” from teamassange.
                    • RedLogix
                      So are you bitching that the swedes aren’t doing enough for all sexual assault investigations, or simply that they are unfairly taking this one seriously?
                      States generally only pursue extradition for serious crimes. This one is not. The Swedish charge involved is not ‘rape’ … it is relatively new and lessor offence that does not have an exact equivalent in the legal systems we are familiar with.
                      Clearly the Swedes are treating Assange as an exceptional case.
                    • McFlock
                      Oh well, the UK legal system must be in on the conspiracy, given that they said he was accused of serious offences. But you know better, right?
    • Morrissey19.2
      This Guardian editorial is very good
      It could have been written by someone at the Foreign Office.
      Couple of questions for you:
      1.) Did you think the dodgy dossiers preparing the ground for the invasion of Iraq were “very good”?
      2.) How much serious reading have you done on this case? (Warning: trawling theGrauniad‘s government-approved website in no way constitutes serious reading.)
  2. rosy20
    Well, unsurprisingly Pussy Riot have been found guilty – of ‘hatred and religious emnity’ rather than political protest. (sort of ironic in a post-soviet nation, with a leader who appears to want to weaken other power blocs).
    The Pussy Riot singers colluded under unestablished circumstances, for the purpose of offensively violating public peace in a sign of flagrant disrespect for citizens
    No word on the sentence yet. The leader of the opposition and Gary Kasparov have been arrested – not for protesting, but for trying to attend the judge’s summing up.
    • rosy20.1
      Sentence: two years in prison, beginning from the day of their arrest. For singing an anti-Putin punk protest song in a church. The judge considers this lenient, especially because two of the women have children.
      Lyrics
      • Grumpy20.1.1
        They are Russian – they knew the risks.
        • rosy20.1.1.1
          I’m not saying they didn’t… well the risk of arrest was understood, but the hate crime, rather than protest charges might have thrown them. It’a a bit of an indicator about what Putin’s democracy means, is all (if one was needed). The arrest of the opposition leader and Kasparov shows a bit of concern about things getting out of control, I reckon.
          Edit: Oh, and I think they’re enormously brave going ahead with it all, knowing the risks.
          • muzza20.1.1.1.1
            Falling for the framing around Russia, by the looks of the your comments Rosy..
            I’d have a wee look into who Kasparov , and for that matter Medvedev get around with..
            Enormously brave, very stupid or naively coerced/flat out used as a tool for what is going on around this “saga”
            • rosy20.1.1.1.1.1
              Pretty aware that a pro-democracy anti-Putin party in Russia is similar in style and influence to similar parties in Georgia and Ukraine have been, Muzza. No wonder the govt wants to keep a lid on it, aye what?
              Never mentioned Medvedev.
              • locus
                🙄
                yes rosy, you are so naive – sucked in by corrupt western media who are framing putin and the Russian authorites. Can’t you see that Pussy Riot are tools of western powers (as are the western media), not to mention those dastardly schemers kasparov and medvedev
              • muzza
                “Never mentioned Medvedev”
                –Correct, I did!
  3. Vicky3221
    but why should Assange be immune from American justice if he has knowingly broken their laws?
    It is to laugh, as the Americans themselves say. American er… justice, when it comes to a charge of espionage? Ma dai!
    You’re even stupider than I thought you to be.

     
  4. Vicky3222
    Just dropping this in for what it’s worth – quite a lot, I think

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32216.htm

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