A couple of moral pygmies discuss military matters.
(Where the F**K does Mora’s producer find these people?)
The Panel, RNZ National, Thursday 1 November 2018
Jim Mora, Susan Hornsby-Geluk, Mike Rehu
(Where the F**K does Mora’s producer find these people?)
The Panel, RNZ National, Thursday 1 November 2018
Jim Mora, Susan Hornsby-Geluk, Mike Rehu
vacuous adj. 1. having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless. 2. (archaic)empty
Protests at Defence ForumProtestors target the representation of US weapons manufacturer Lockheed Martin at Palmerston North’s Defence, Industry and National Security Forum. But, NZ First MP Darroch Ball says many other business are taking part which supply “apples, toilet paper, spare parts, electronics, steel and clothing to the Defence Force” and which have a presence in the city.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018669360/protests-at-defence-forum
MORA: [speaking over intro. music] W-w-what do you think, both of you, about the vigorous protests in Palmerston North at the Defence Industry Expo? Do you have a view?
SUSAN HORNSBY-GELUK: [inhales and clicks tongue to indicate how thoughtful she is] I think it’s kind of IRONIC that, um, an anti-violence campaign results in a couple of people being assaulted, ahhh, a couple of people assaulting THE police, but, um, I think the point here is it’s not a GUNS expo, it’s really important that this is, like, a defense procurement exercise, and if we’re going to have an army and we’re going to invest millions of, uh, dollars in the army, we clearly need to understand, y’ow, what the best equipment is, so, yeah, I support the right of people to engage in, ahhhmm, peaceful protest but, ah, I do think it might be slightly misGUIDED in this instance.
MORA: [inhales loudly to indicate moral seriousness] What do YOU think?
MIKE REHU: Yeah, I, I, I’m the SAME actually. I, I do feel as though we, [baffled sigh] y’know, the industryyyy, y’know in EVERY industry they HAVE these conferences, they HAVE these exhibitions, this is, and ironically in SOME countries yooouu, you SAY “defense” and it’s not defense, it’s OFFENSE, but I think New Zealand HAS to have a DE-fense, and I, I personally worry that, that we-e-e-e, we don’t. I mean, I was just looking at some numbers earlier today, we spend four hundred and twenty-six dollars a PERSON on our DE-fense compared to Australia’s fifteen HUNDRED, which is over four times, and the U.S.has three point one per cent of their G.D.P. spent on defense, ours is like one point one—
MORA: Yeah.
MIKE REHU: So we spend a MINUSCULE amount, and you can TELL in the quality of aircraft, boats, and blah-blah-blah that we have. But in these days of, y’know, what they’re calling the sharp POWER where we saw, y’know, ahhmm, the Saudi Arabian fella get, ahhh, get assassinated pretty much, allegedly, in Turkey, ahhh, we’ve seen the North Koreans come down and hit somebody. We’ve seen the Russian spies come in. Now, w-w-we’re pretty harmless down here but we’ve got a lotta things that people WANT in the world, especially our natural resources like water. And we’ve seen, we’ve played NICELY with people, we’ve almost GIVEN [snickers] away some of our resources. But when, now that we’re wising UP a little bit, what if people WAN’ our resources and things down here and, and what’re we gonna do—
MORA: Is that—
MIKE REHU: —if somebody comes in?
MORA: Is that push ever gonna come to shove though?
MIKE REHU: Well. I mean, surely we should have some sort of sturdy defense anyway, at least SOME capability, I mean, otherwise we WILL have to turn to bigger powers and, and then we’d, we have to, obviously, sign some kind of compromise deals with people and—-
MORA: Which is what we do now, don’t we. We, we lend them a frigate, or we lend them a, a batch of the S.A.S. and we play our part among a group of nations.
MIKE REHU: [inhales loudly to indicate how serious he is] Yeah, and, but even with AUSTRALIA, y’know, the relationship we have with Australia, apparently, y’know, a lot of our kit is massively inFERIOR, and we get by with our good soft skills, our good people skills when we’re overseas representing our country in part of these United Nations, ahhhm, combinations. So, y’know, again, coming back to your first question about the expo, ahhhmm, it IS a worry that there MAY be some weapons of OFFense, ahhhm, being shown at this exhibition, but I think if it’s about DE-fense then we should play a part.
MORA: Here’s Andy Hickman from Peace Action Manawatu, talking about Lockheed Martin’s presence at the expo, and its manufacture of a laser-guided bomb that destroyed a school bus in Yemen in August.
RECORDED VOICE OF ANDY HICKMAN: Forty schoolboys were killed by that particular bomb, ahhh, Lockheed Martin takes ownership, that WAS their bomb, but they claim no responsibility ‘cos it was fired by the Saudi Arabians, and we say that no, actually, they have a moral and ethical responsibility to take ownership for that.
MORA: And this is a moral dilemma that in LIVING history goes back to the burden of guilt felt by the men who built the atom bomb. But we also know that everybody sells weapons to the Saudi regime. And, the world of realpolitik, this is a very hard one, isn’t it. And are there any easy answers, and is the, I mean, does New Zealand need to take the clear-cut stand that people like Andy Hickman would like? Or do we have to sidle our way through the world as you’re suggesting?
MIKE REHU: And I know that these expos and exhibitions have been held in different cities over the years, but for Palmerston North as well, um, that is very close to where a lot of our military happens, and a lot of the economy is, is DRIVEN by the military as well, so I guess we have to be a bit careful that we kill ALL industry around that.
MORA: Yeah, ash, and New Zealand First M.P. Darroch Ball says a lot of the businesses have a PRESENCE in Palmerston North, actually, and they employ thousands of people right across the country, and it’s as much about apples, toilet paper, spare parts, electronics, steel and clothing as it is about anything else. But just before we leave the topic, ahh, to give the opposite poi-i-innnt, Golriz Ghahraman, writing today, ahhh, talks about the self-steering bullets, tiny killer drones from Israel: “I’ve seen what that looks like on the ground,” she says, referring to her childhood in Iran, “a sea of amputees poured into Iranian cities from the frontlines during the 1980s. Half the world feels like second class citizens, as we did in Iran. Our lives and misery are not as important as the profit being made from war.” So she’s saying, can New Zealand really, with a clear conscience, take part in any of that?
SUSAN HORNSBY-GELUK: There’s, there’s two different issues in tha-a-a-a-at. One is the, ahhhh, equipment itself, and two is, who’s making a profit from it? But in terms of the equipment itself, IF we’re gonna send guyyyys, ash, to Afghanistan or wherever it is, they need to have whatever the other people have got, otherwise, ahhh, we’re sending them into an unsafe environment. Um, that means they need to have, y’ow, technologically the very best that we ca-a-a-an, uh, possibly provide for them. As to who makes the profit from it, I think that’s a different issue, and I think she’s BLENDING the, um, the MORAL judgement about what war CAN result in, with, aah, the issue of who might make a profit and who might not.
MORA: [inhaling loudly] These are not easy answers to find, are they not, but I’m, um, pleased to have had your opinions on it.
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Later in the program, we were treated to the following classic comment:
SUSAN HORNSBY-GELUK: I hear the Governor General is a vegan. That’s really cool.