Spat between MediaLens and C. Johnstone re Greta T. (Sept. 25, 2019)

Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here: Posted by Ken Waldron on September 25, 2019, 1:28 pm http://twitter.com/medialens/status/1176785868792705024

Re: Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here: Posted by Jamie on September 25, 2019, 2:02 pm, in reply to "Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" No longer of the fringes and crossing the political divide, Universal Basic Income is regularly seen and packaged as a progressive, inevitability in an ever-increasingly automated society. But, depending on the amounts concerned (subsistence probably) and with it being spent on the usual suspects, it will do nothing to address the massive structural power imbalance; indeed, it would compound it. Oligarchs can both recognise a threat to their existence and simultaneously seek to find a solution that will maintain and protect their position. Not sure why that is so controversial.

Back to Beveridge Posted by Keith-264 on September 25, 2019, 5:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" Beveridge calculated benefit levels based on redistribution between generations of working class people, hence their derisory amounts. Even the Tories (Officials) added to them to meet people's subsistence needs. It takes redistribution between classes to make living incomes. Guess what will happened to a working-class UBI. Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018

And that's the final nail for me. Posted by turtleman on September 25, 2019, 2:25 pm, in reply to "Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" That's enough of the Davids for me, though I wish them well. A new game? Really? This is the inevitable trap all committed leftists, materialists, and 'spiritualists' fall into. The God path, on the other hand, teaches that Truth, grace, reason and Faith are NEVER removed or abandoned by ANY circumstance EVER. In fact, the crazier the circumstance, the more urgent it is to be awake and stand fully upright in Truth, grace, reason and Faith. Committed leftists, being so unutterably arrogant and sure of their goodness, haven't a clue about the nature of the devil. They know not their enemy because they know not themselves. They think Evil is on the right and Good is on the left. Therefore, a trap has already been set up for this mentality, set from the beginning of time. It is a cosmic inevitability. It is a Cosmic Law. The way of the damned. turtleman

That Spat... Posted by Si on September 25, 2019, 2:38 pm, in reply to "And that's the final nail for me." I agree that the Dave responsible for this exchange is being somewhat arrogant. Also there is a worrying credulousnous with regard to that which elites say and ultimately do. ---------------------------- Caitlin Johnstone Obviously whenever the billionaire media are relentlessly smashing you in the face with a child mascot they're working to manipulate you. Doesn't mean she herself is bad or that climate change isn't real, it just means they're working to manipulate you in a specific direction. Media Lens Such lazy complacency. When the science is pointing at near-term catastrophe, system collapse, and ultimately extinction, we're in a new ball game. When elites also fear for their lives the Propaganda Model can no longer fully account for media performance …*FOLLOWED BY AN APPEAL TO 'AUTHORITY' IN THE GUISE OF A CHOMSKY PROCLAMATION* CJ Just because the plutocrats are working towards a (highly profitable) climate solution doesn't mean we're not being manipulated. You will see this energy corralled toward making wealthy people wealthier, because as long as we're in an oligarchy, oligarchs control climate policy. ML Your mistake is to over-confidently assume you know what lies behind media performance - that it's the same old, same old. It isn't. When elites are increasingly waking up to a catastrophe that really will, very soon, consume everything they hold dear, we are in new territory. CJ That would only be true if the oligarchs simply wanted to save the world. They don't. They want to save the world, preserve capitalism, and protect/advance their respective empires. That's why the narrative is being moved toward the notion that we can consume our way out of this. ML You've contradicted yourself; that's precisely why it's new: the 'They want to save the world' aspect is new. Never before have they given a damn about protecting the planet. CJ No I haven't. The fact that they're working to shore up more power while trying to get us to consume our way out of this problem to their benefit (which won't work) is precisely the issue I'm pointing squarely at. ML If you can't see the contradiction, I can't help you.

Re: That Spat... Posted by Ken Waldron on September 25, 2019, 3:06 pm, in reply to "That Spat..." -Tend to agree with you.

Johnstone nails it Posted by Bluefool on September 25, 2019, 3:10 pm, in reply to "That Spat..." The MediaLens chaps are very naive there in thinking that the oligarchs suddenly give a damn about protecting the planet. They demonstrably don't. That's why they haven't stopped trying to make money out of oil, fracking, tar sands, air travel, etc.. They don't give the remotest shit about the planet. They only care that they will have a secure bolt hole if there is a massive die off and to be honest I think a massive die off is what they want. That's why they're pushing austerity, veganism, mandatory vaccines and trying to ban/price people out of red meat, clean water, clean air and healthcare. Yes, yes. Tin foil hat, etc.!

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Willem on September 25, 2019, 4:15 pm, in reply to "Johnstone nails it" I think you're misquoting ML. It's CJ who says They want to save the world, preserve capitalism, and protect/advance their respective empires. ML then quotes CJ about the `They want to save the world' bit. So is CJ naive? One trouble with the line of thinking that Greta is just the face of corporate power (its child mascot according to CJ) is that her message is not at all buying trendy new green products. It's very unlike for example the MSM with their breathless stories about doing something urgently about Iraq/Libya/Crimea/Syria etc.". Those stories were full of holes and lies. You didn't need to say, don't trust the corporate media, you could just point out the nonsense. Where exactly are the lies Greta is pushing?

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Si on September 25, 2019, 6:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" Not sure about that, Willem - I think it's a bit more nuanced - ML assert in 2 separate tweets: 'When elites also fear for their lives'...'When elites are increasingly waking up' - the implication being elites have concluded Earth needs to be saved - - then CJ collegially (imo) concedes, 'That would only be true if the oligarchs simply wanted to save the world. They don't. They want to save the world, preserve capitalism, and protect/advance their respective empires'.

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Willem on September 26, 2019, 10:54 am, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" OK. Still, pretty big jump from 'elites are increasingly waking up', which I believe is happening and probably why Greta is given much coverage, to `elites wanting to save the world'. I don't see ML saying this. As someone else mentioned, tweets are not good for detailed arguments as so much nuance is left out.

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Si on September 26, 2019, 4:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" Literalism aside, my reading of it sees ML determinedly asserting that 'elites waking up' is a game changer; all bets are off and the PR model can no longer be invoked. That smacks of an uncharacteristic naiveté on ML's behalf, to me. Conversely, I view it as something akin to a 'propaganda blitz' - time will tell, I'm sure. Wrt to GT's elevation - I think it more likely that the youngster's across-the-spectrum coverage signals that the elites have identified a profitable angle - hardly an original thought, I know. Similarly, small(ish) numbers of ER activists are able to bring major cities to a standstill because their actions serve elite interests - isn't that just obvious? Had anti-war protesters attempted to stage such actions the streets would have been cleared pronto - and there'd have been none of that amiability from friendly Bobbies allowing opportunities for arrested folk to smile broadly for the cameras - of that there can be no doubt. Last week's Friday Strike is illustrative: where I work (large university) the exec' enjoined EVERYBODY to 'down tools' and go and strike alongside ER, with pay. Contrast that with attitudes around a negotiated 1 hour strike action (agreed between the Union, exec' and academics) a few years ago - the action was to highlight the inequity of raises given to exec' and academics respectively - - across the piece the academics were lambasted for 'holding the uni and the poor suffering students to ransom' - or some such cack - anybody wishing to join the academics in their action had to seek permission from managers and take a 1 hour pay reduction!

There may be room here for not seeing elites as monolithic? Posted by Shyaku on September 26, 2019, 11:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" The fact that thoughtful people here can see both sides, may be an indication they are not. I would put forward the suggestion that the most psychopathic, ie the ones with the most real power, hold to the 'die-off/bolt-hole' concept, but they may not be the ones pushing the publicizing of Thunberg. - Just a thought. Regards, Shyaku

Monolithic doesn't exclude common strategy and contested tactics....nm Posted by Keith-264 on September 27, 2019, 2:43 pm, in reply to "There may be room here for not seeing elites as monolithic?" nm Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Sinister Burt on September 27, 2019, 11:07 am, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" "Had anti-war protesters attempted to stage such actions the streets would have been cleared pronto - and there'd have been none of that amiability from friendly Bobbies allowing opportunities for arrested folk to smile broadly for the cameras - " This is true - though contrast the positive coverage of some parts with the treatment and lack of coverage of the heathrow pause Ian M posted about recently. They're obviously only comfortable with cosying up to some of it - as usual, their comfort over particular actions is probably a good rule of thumb for whether it's a threat to them. Due to all the coverage, i'd have put greta thunberg in the part they're comfortable with, but i'm not sure since hearing her talking about infinite growth - it'll be interesting to see if she starts saying more economic stuff like that and whether/how quickly she gets dropped from view because of it.

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by turtleman on September 26, 2019, 2:25 am, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" "her message is not at all buying trendy new green products." You're grasping at straws. Never mind her message, consider the effect of this spectacle. And the PTB are not using her to sell biodegradable toothpaste, they are using her to soften and ready the masses for the next level of Globalism's tyranny! turtleman

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Willem on September 26, 2019, 11:16 am, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" Well, I was responding to the accusation that Greta is the child mascot for the corporate billionaires in helping them sell new `green' products. Not sure why that's `grasping at straws'. As to the effect: that's not clear -- there could be new laws banning single-use plastics, there may be superficially good-looking laws which create more harm than good. Perhaps you can expand on what the `Global tyranny' has in store. But one thing's for sure: we do have an emergency (unless you don't believe the figures) and it's effecting the young far more than the rest.

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by turtleman on September 26, 2019, 2:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" "Perhaps you can expand on what the `Global tyranny' has in store." Are you mocking the notion of Globalism? The tyranny is already here: God and Truth are openly scorned. Truth is now a 'relative' thing. Except for the scary 'truth' ("we're all going to die and it's all their fault!"). Now that truth is relative, and identity is a 'right' and gender is 'fluid', we can let go of good old reason and intelligence ("the game has changed! We have a DUTY to panic!"). Now it's all emotionalism, sanctimony, self-righteousness, and the celebration of child exploitation for the cause (Desmond for LGBT, Greta for the environment). . . Yes, we do have an emergency. And all the power and infrastructure is now firmly in place to successfully make the most diabolical use of the situation. It can, and it will, go in that direction, greatly fueled by the socially engineered useful idiots. At the very least, stuff your cheap 'hope' far up your derriere and turn instead to sober skepticism.

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Willem on September 26, 2019, 3:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" Are you mocking the notion of Globalism? No, just using your phrase. The tyranny is already here Yes, I agree*. But I'm asking what's in store, or rather, what you think is in store. The power and infrastructure will "make the most diabolical use of the situation." So, what -- more specifically -- will they get up to now? stuff your cheap 'hope' far up your derriere and turn instead to sober skepticism. My `cheap hope'? *Up to a point. I wouldn't place fluid gender and identity rights quite so near the top of the list. Once the emergency begins to really bite, these things will be quickly forgotten.

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by turtleman on September 27, 2019, 3:17 am, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" Why are you asking me what's in store? Did I claim to know the future in detail? By 'cheap hope' I'm referring to your question, "Where exactly are the lies Greta is pushing?" I, for one, am not claiming she's 'lying.' What I am saying is that she is an exploited kid (coached for this spectacle from prepubescence by unhinged ideologues). She wants people to panic. "Bravo!" say the clapping seals. The leaders have failed us and how dare them look to the youth for hope! "Bravo!" clap the seals. Well, panicking is never a good idea, and blaming others and the world is never a good habit (and it is certainly habit-forming!). So, the people (particularly the youth) are being engineered right out of their sovereign intelligence, virtue, and potentiality, the easier to herd them into a diabolical solution that leads them right off a cliff. Greta is just an innocent child mental case being exploited for the purpose. And as to your last statement, "I wouldn't place fluid gender and identity rights quite so near the top of the list. Once the emergency begins to really bite, these things will be quickly forgotten," . . . SHIT man! That's like saying Once the moths hit the flame they will quickly forget the yellow light. The point is not simply gender and identity weirdness, but the widespread erosion of reason, objective truth, justice, and freedom of thought and speech. When these things are weakened, tyranny floods in and takes over pretty damn quick!

Re: Johnstone nails it Posted by Bluefool on September 26, 2019, 9:11 am, in reply to "Re: Johnstone nails it" I see what you're saying, as Johnstone is the first one to use that phrase, but I think that you used her quote a bit out of context. Look at the previous tweets and even the first two sentences in the same tweet preceding the bit you quoted: "That would only be true if the oligarchs simply wanted to save the world. They don't." The discussion reads to me like ML think oligarchs want to save the world, but Johnstone is arguing they just want to save their world. That's why it doesn't strike me as a contradiction and why I think ML are being naive.

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by Ken Waldron on September 25, 2019, 3:04 pm, in reply to "And that's the final nail for me." Hallelujah!...em... except nobody but some other identikit believer knows what you are on about.

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by brooks on September 25, 2019, 3:19 pm, in reply to "And that's the final nail for me." Committed leftists, being so unutterably arrogant and sure of their goodness, haven't a clue about the nature of the devil. Oh, you are so mistaken. I know all about the Evil One. For instance: he's red, has horns, a goatee, a long tail with a little arrow-head tip, hooves and a trident, though he doesn't always appear in this form. Also answers to "Mephistopheles". Lives in the fiery regions below. Sometimes walks the earth in search of souls and is reputed to be a fine fiddler, though slightly less accomplished than Johnny to whom he once lost a gold violin in a bet. And that just scratches the surface of what I know about this fellow.

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by Jamie on September 25, 2019, 3:26 pm, in reply to "Re: And that's the final nail for me." You forgot that he wears a blue tie... ;-)

Re: And that's the final nail for me...Brooks, is this the fellow? Posted by Ed,  on September 25, 2019, 4:33 pm, in reply to "Re: And that's the final nail for me." THE DEVIL'S WALK by Southey and Coleridge From his brimstone bed at break of day A walking the DEVIL is gone, To visit his little snug farm of the earth And see how his stock went on. Over the hill and over the dale, And he went over the plain, And backward and forward he swished his long tail As a gentleman swishes his cane. And how then was the Devil drest? Oh! he was in his Sunday's best: His jacket was red and his breeches were blue, And there was a hole where the tail came through. He saw a LAWYER killing a Viper On a dung heap beside his stable, And the Devil smiled, for it put him in mind Of Cain and _his_ brother, Abel. A POTHECARY on a white horse Rode by on his vocations, And the Devil thought of his old Friend DEATH in the Revelations. He saw a cottage with a double coach-house, A cottage of gentility! And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin Is pride that apes humility. He went into a rich bookseller's shop, Quoth he! we are both of one college, For I myself sate like a cormorant once Fast by the tree of knowledge. Down the river there plied, with wind and tide, A pig with vast celerity; And the Devil look'd wise as he saw how the while, It cut its own throat. 'There!' quoth he with a smile, 'Goes 'England's commercial prosperity.'' As he went through Cold-Bath Fields he saw A solitary cell; And the Devil was pleased, for it gave him a hint For improving his prisons in Hell. * * * * * * General ----------- burning face He saw with consternation, And back to hell his way did he take, For the Devil thought by a slight mistake It was general conflagration.

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by Sinister Burt on September 25, 2019, 6:00 pm, in reply to "Re: And that's the final nail for me." No need to feel threatened by the devil - you only get horns and hooves on a herbivore - just clap your hands or shout and he'll probably run away like a cow. (or maybe that just proves vegetarians are evil...)

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by turtleman on September 26, 2019, 1:49 am, in reply to "Re: And that's the final nail for me." I am not threatened by the devil because I know about his tricks and can distinguish between truth and lies. Many folks here, on the other hand, seem to be priming themselves as goat feed. turtleman

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by Sinister Burt on September 26, 2019, 7:44 am, in reply to "Re: And that's the final nail for me." We're omnivores - we could eat the devil (i've got a recipie for curried goat here somewhere). Jokes aside - hello turtleman, how are you?

Re: And that's the final nail for me. Posted by turtleman on September 27, 2019, 2:54 am, in reply to "Re: And that's the final nail for me." Hello SB, I'm doing pretty good. How are you?

Re: Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here: Posted by brooks on September 25, 2019, 4:13 pm, in reply to "Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" Just another twitterstorm in a teapot. I don't really agree with either of them. Johnstone's use of language is needlessly hyperbolic/inflammatory when she describes the "billionaire media" as "relentlessly smashing you in the face with a child mascot". Such a crude and silly metaphor. Does anyone feel "relentlessly smashed in the face" by media coverage of this young woman? Is she just a "mascot"? She's also been covered a lot by alternative media, and I don't feel "relentlessly smashed in the face" unless I'm an unconscious masochist. But then, I've always disliked her writing style. I also don't see evidence for certainty that the goal of the coverage is to "corral" activist energy "toward making wealthy people wealthier". There could be many reasons for the coverage. For example the liberal establishment doesn't like Trump - who was even trolling Thunberg on twitter - and her UN speech was largely aimed at his administration. Or it could be an event that has received too much global attention to ignore. There could be numerous reasons given the conflicting interests of the media besides using Thunberg as a "mascot" to "get us to consume our way out of this problem to their benefit." I suspect that if her analysis continues to target capitalism and economic growth, it's doubtful whether the coverage will continue. We'll have to wait and see. Occupy also got covered for a while. Otoh, I also don't think it's necessarily the case that the coverage reveals an establishment "increasingly waking up to a catastrophe that really will, very soon, consume everything they hold dear" as there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. Finally, neither of them mention the global movement to compel action on climate change without which Thunberg probably could not have appeared at all, and is far more significant than one person's message. None of this is to say we shouldn't be suspicious of media coverage, that goes without saying. So to me it's just another example of how twitter soundbite-debates aren't very useful and can needlessly pit ideological allies against eachother.

Re: Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here: Posted by Ken Waldron on September 25, 2019, 4:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" the Assange saga shows us how the road from celebrated media-darling to media-deprecation and demonisation is often short and abrupt: Thunberg's usefulness to the vultures may already be concluding; lets hope she doesn't suffer anything similar.

No wonder kids are having nightmares when adults are scaring them to death with stories Posted by psingh  on September 25, 2019, 4:30 pm, in reply to "Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" of the imminent end of the world. Take Marx, take hope, take inspiration.

It seems to me that it's a silly season event Posted by Keith-264 on September 25, 2019, 5:28 pm, in reply to "No wonder kids are having nightmares when adults are scaring them to death with stories" but time will tell. I can't wait for a Somali kid to be taken up by the media. Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018

Re: No wonder kids are having nightmares when adults are scaring them to death with stories Posted by johnlilburne on September 25, 2019, 6:46 pm, in reply to "No wonder kids are having nightmares when adults are scaring them to death with stories" Take Marx, take hope, take inspiration.  Care to expand on that?

Re: No wonder kids are having nightmares when adults are scaring them to death with stories Posted by Ken Waldron on September 25, 2019, 8:24 pm, in reply to "Re: No wonder kids are having nightmares when adults are scaring them to death with stories" Take Marx, take hope, take inspiration. Care to expand on that? "Don't try gate crashing a party full of bankers. Burn the house down! Take Jesus - Take Marx- Take Hope!" The Housemartins. London 0 Hull 4 1986:

Medialns bit off more than they can chew .. Posted by Shyaku on September 26, 2019, 10:44 pm, in reply to "Bit of a spat on the Thunburg issue between Medialens & Caitlin Johnstone here:" They should not go ad hom so quickly on Caitlin Johnon. Her position is entirely legitimate. I don't think it is very effective to create conflict in this way. She has a point, and this was never ackonwledged.

Re: Medialns bit off more than they can chew .. Posted by dereklane on September 27, 2019, 12:20 am, in reply to "Medialns bit off more than they can chew .." It's a pity. Seems like the flak filter from manufacturing consent. Part of the reason they I think were so careful about rejecting 911 conspiracy talk*. I think they worried too much what the mainstream thought, and it becomes a reflexive thing. It seemed also why they decided to shut the board down, they didn't want to be tarred with the anti Id pol brush and it was a hot topic at the time. Never mind the fact most people can see the difference between stuff that I say and stuff dan says. In fact I think the only group that consistently uses this as a stick to beat others with is the mainstream media.so association is enough to tarnish your reputation there. Then the question is, why do they care about that? Cj talks often with her heart, not a bad thing. Worrying about what others think (particularly the msm!) seems a waste of time and a dereliction of duty imo. I haven't read a ton of her stuff, as a disclaimer, but what I have read she seems to speak with relevance. She certainly indicates she understands how the world works. I'd prefer if the two David's made alliances with such folk rather than destroying them using techniques better suited to paxman, but what do I know? *not my thing as people here probably know.

CJ is a she?....nm Posted by Keith-264 on September 27, 2019, 1:27 am, in reply to "Re: Medialns bit off more than they can chew .." nm Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018

Re: CJ is a she?....nm Posted by dereklane on September 27, 2019, 7:24 am, in reply to "CJ is a she?....nm" Caitlin Johnstone. No idea about our resident cj, though I'm guessing male. Sorry, should have been more clear. Was trying to save typing time

Ah....nm Posted by Keith-264 on September 27, 2019, 3:02 pm, in reply to "Re: CJ is a she?....nm" nm Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018